Newbie needs help with designing and building/purchasing cool flouro 5 point setup

G

greg sage

Member
Hey, guys. First post.

I've been reading up for nearly 48 hours straight now as I want to make a move in the next couple days.

I am going to be shooting music videos in my home with a full body greenscreen setup (10x8 wall plus floor covered)

I need cool and relatively inexpensive lighting. I have read everything I could find relating to kinos, cfl's, etc. I am really looking first and foremost for the colors to pop. If anything, they'll actually be exaggerated in post... and, of course, for a good clean greenscreen effect.

I'm not interested in LED's for two reasons: Cost, and the whole "Can't add a color that's not there" spectrum issue.

I am looking to light the entire staging area evenly so I and other actors can move around freely with minimal lighting issues. Generally, I have decided to go with very diffuse lighting in a 5 point setup to properly highlight the actors, and separately, evenly, light the greenscreen.

That being said, it would seem that my ideal setup would be a bunch of kinos, some magenta gels for the green spike, and everything should look great... except that one kino is way more than my whole budget. Budget is a bit flexable as I'm trying to think long term here, but here are some considerations:

Videos will generally be indoors, but in case I decide to shoot something outdoors, it would be nice if it could help with some fill light there too.

I want diffuse, even light with minimal shadows and no hard edges.

I will be shooting a number of videos... probably one a month for the next few years, and tearing down after each shoot. So... portable, but that's not the TOP consideration.

Heat and electric bill are also a concern.

Obviously, some fixtures are better, sturdier, etc than others, but I'm more concerned with quality of light and budget than with it lasting a hundred years or being able to withstand a hurricane. Again, shooting maybe once a month and rarely if ever outside the home.

A ton of work is going into the keyed backgrounds, music, and so on, so it would be oddly out of place for the footage to be sub par.

I am getting a camera this week. Can't afford the one I really want (ac160) , but I'm looking at getting a dvx100 for now as it seems to be relatively sharp image with good color.


So... I'm seeing two options, and I'd appreciate some feedback.


Option 1
Homemade kinos

I could find appropriate electronic ballasts, and buy actual kino bulbs, gel for the green spike, and call it a day. While this would be relatively expensive to do right... maybe a couple hundred bucks per fixture, I suppose I could cough up the cash if the QUALITY of light was really that much better.


Option 2
CFL's
I have read so much mixed stuff on this and I'm hoping some of it is out of date and things are a bit better now. I can find really cheap lighting kits... like under $400 for five separate fixtures with stands, softboxes, and five bulbs per fixture, each with it's own on/off. This would let me put a little more money into the camera, props, etc.

First of all, I like the separate on/off thing. Seems that the bulbs shift their spectrum when dimmed, so I'd rather dim in stages by turning off individual bulbs.

Second, I'm trying to think a year or two ahead, and IF cfl's can give pro results, they're easier to replace, etc. Now mind you, I'll buy whatever the best possible bulb is. If that means the bulbs are $100 per fixture, then so be it. Again, quality of light above all else. Not so concerned if the fixtures themselves are a bit flimsy as it's not a busy studio.

Specifically, I'm looking at this stuff:
http://fancierstudio.com/lenses/300...continuous-softbox-lighting-kit-vl9026s3.html

I figured I'd go with the ones that can produce the most light... knowing I can always turn off any bulbs I choose.



Now, one potential issue I'm noticing... their literature says E27 base. Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but that's a European standard, right? Aren't American bulbs E26 base? Will a typical American base bulb screw in properly to an E27 fixture?


Assuming it will, it boils down to this:
Do proper cfl's exist that not only look good on paper (High CRI, appropriate temp, etc).. but also really WORK and give equivalent results to kinos?

If so, which ones? Would I need to gel them? Would the gels really zero in on the exact right spike for them as people seem to beliveve they do for the kinos?

If not... is there a much simpler budget option that's not gonna take me a month to build 5 homemade kinos... like just buying a standard multi fixture from home depot and swapping out the ballast, and then somehow magically bolting to a stand? Again, I've read up on this, but some of the info is older, and there may be better options people have discovered as quite a few folks are probably in a similar boat.

Also, I've been reading some buzz about people wanting to go with temps more like 4200k... assumedly for warmer skin tones. If I just use them indoors and am not matching anything, should I look into this as well?

Sorry it's so long, and thanks in advance for any input.

Greg
 
Too long? If so, fair enough.

I can boil it down to:

For 5 point greenscreen video shoots with no budget for kinos, am I better off building homemade kinos, using real kino tubes, or can I get very close results by purchasing cheap cfl softbox kits, possibly switching included ballasts, and finding the absolute best cfl bulbs available. All other considerations aside, is the quality and spectrum of light in kinos possible to achieve with cfl's?


thx
 
My thoughts... Have a look at something along the lines of the ephoto biax flourscent lights which are inexpensive, and come with tubes either daylight or studio. 6x55w, 4x55w, 2x55w. They are like buying the tubes and getting the fixture for free.

Good luck!

Dave
 
Sorry, but I'm not quite understanding that. Google search of "ephoto biax flourscent lights" pops up all sorts of loosely related things. There is no ephoto.com if that was supposed to be a site, and first two google links I clicked on were for fixtures over $1000 each.

Who is the manufacturer or what is the site of the items you are mentioning?

Am I also to assume from the response that you don't believe I have a cfl bulb option of equivalent quality to doing the tubes?
 
Ah. Ok, thx.

I checked out their site, and I see a lot of the same type of stuff I've been looking at too like multiple fixtures in softboxes for compact scrw in type bulbs.

So I take it then that the ballasts, etc that they use are close enough to what a company like kino uses? (Not as concerned about the overall build as the elements that lead directly to lighting quality)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but since I want to light a very large area as evenly as possoble so actors can move anywhere with minimal lighting issues, I was thinking I'd be better off using all softboxes for the least hotspots, shadows, most even lighting, etc.

Do I really want barndoors and such if this is my only application?

The reason I'm asking about the compact screw type is cost but also because they have the softbox enclosures. If softboxes are preferable in my case (not sure... asking) then million dollar question is quality of light for screw type vs tubes.

Really just trying to get to the bottom of best overall low budget solution that doesn't cut any corners in the actual light quality department, so no flicker issues, and want overall spectrum and even tone to be on par with pro studio using pro fluoros.

My understanding is that comes down to two things: ballasts and bulbs. The rest may be important, but it's not affecting the actual light quality, and since it's such a low use thing for my own videos only, I'm willing to cut those kind of corners and don't mind the chinese made stands, etc.

What I'm not the least bit sure about, though... is:

1 Are the ballasts acceptable in those products? If not, can they be swapped out.

2 Can I get the same light quality using the screw type bulbs as opposed to tubes? (my first choice if possible.)

3 If not, and I need tubes, are these other tubes truly on par with kino... since I can buy kino tubes.
 
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If I do need to go with tubes, should I do something about softening them? Goal here is very even lighting across the whole area for actors to be able to move, and minimal shadowing.

Also, of course, for the 2 lights behind the actors in the 5 point setup to be lighting as evenly as possible.

Again, new to this, so I could be wrong, but directionals is not what I want here, right?


Now, if I just CAN'T get the same light quality from screw base bulbs, and if these fixtures do have ballasts that perform at an acceptably pro standard, what about just getting two of them? Since the key and fill for the actors is just two of the lights, and the back/hair light and screen lights are all behind the actors, do those lights matter much less?

What about doing two of these (if necessary) for key and fill, and doing the cfl softboxes for the rest?

Has anyone actually tested these (or the current crop of cfl bulbs available) against kinos? I've seen some tests, but a bit older.
 
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Fluorescent light is soft to begin with, but you can soften it further if needed.

You will likely want your talent at least 5 feet from your 10x8 green screen to prevent spill, something to think about.
 
I was figuring a 6 foot buffer. I may actually go wider and do more like a 9x15 plus the floor.

I'm guessing the softer the better if only to make sure lighting is even across the whole area. If I do 1000 watt equivalents or more per light, I'm thinking that should be plenty as a max that I can step down from as required.

I've read some mixed things about gels... and I'm thinking maybe that the front key and fill lights should be gel'd and the others not, yet I haven't come across anyone verifying that concept. Some of the softboxes and kino type fixtures are larger than the gels I've found, so not sure how that's handled.

People talk a lot about how the ballasts are superior to typical home lights with kinos, yet I can't find a shred of info about the ballasts for any of the types mentioned in this thread, so I really have no concept of whether they are handling their duty appropriately for my purposes.

Another few hours of research today, and I'm really not clear at all either as to whether the kino bulbs are better than EVERY screw in bulb available. Difference in cost for the fixtures is pretty big. I can get three 1kwatt huge fixtures w/ softboxes, stands, and a case delivered for $189 which is just over half the cost of one single kino type off brand fixture. I'll do tubes if necessary... at least for the key and fill.

So it all comes down to the bulbs, right?

Are the tubes necessary?
 
Don't be fooled by their verbage about wattage equivalents when looking at these Flo lights.. IE(1K watt soft box)

Calculate the real wattage these lights put out.
 
David W. Jones said:
Don't be fooled by their verbage about wattage equivalents when looking at these Flo lights.. IE(1K watt soft box)

Calculate the real wattage these lights put out.
Click to expand...

Well, that's why I figured I'd just go for the ones with at least 5 sockets per... More sockets means more control as they can go on/off independently, and means I'll always have enough wattage if I go full on. Lighting my living room with 5kw ought to suffice even if it is somewhat off the mark, I would think.

I plan on getting a light meter, and reading up on proper calibration, etc... so I'll dial it in. 5 point setup should work best from what I can tell. I'm taking measurements today... and may go bigger with the greenscreen... like 15x20 so I can get 15 foot wide stage for widescreen shots whre actors can move around more (8 feet tall plus floor)

Even if I found it wasn't enough wattage and doubled the lighting rig, it's still WAY cheaper to go the screw-base route. The fixtures are just dirt cheap, and it's not much to get up to 24x36" softboxes on each one which ought to be ridiculously diffuse.

Most of the posts I can dig up on the subject are old. Any real info to be had about kino or similar tubes vs the best screw base cfl's out there today?

I'll pay the money for the kino types if necessary, just can't find any solid info about modern comparison... or about the ballasts used in either the kino knockoffs or the screw base chinese stuff.
 
greg sage said:
I was figuring a 6 foot buffer. I may actually go wider and do more like a 9x15 plus the floor.

I'm guessing the softer the better if only to make sure lighting is even across the whole area. If I do 1000 watt equivalents or more per light, I'm thinking that should be plenty as a max that I can step down from as required.
Are the tubes necessary?
Click to expand...


For film use, having a 'wattage' number is almost useless. The real photometric parameter to know is the footcandles/lux the light delivers, at various distances. (even value at 10 feet would be better than nothing...).

You then need to know how much light you need for your camera to give a 'good image'. Camera manufacturers are 'good' at giving minimal specs... to beat the competition, but for a 'good' image, they tend to be vague.

One value that seems to 'crop up', is 100 footcandles falling on your subject. At ISO 400 you can shoot with an f-stop of 5.6, @ 24 fps, with a shutter speed of 1/50. (or with ISO 100, shoot with f/2.8).

'cheap' light vendors do not usually give this basic information. You have to 'calculate' it out, and need to know such things as 'lumen output', at the very least. For a simple 'cone' type reflector, one can calculate the footcandles/lux by use of solid angle calculations... everyone had that in school... right??? In any case it can be calculated.

For a 'tube' the calculation becomes more complex, as the light is more 'cylindrical' as it pass away from the tube. Reflectors direct the light from the opposite side of the tube towards the subject, but still, it's not as simple a reflection as in the case of a 'cone' type reflector.

Once you have the light parameter in footcandles/lux at the distance you want to work at, you can then evaluate what you need to meet the above mentioned 'desired light'.

In terms of light characteristics, the concept of point source is useful. A 'bulb' is more like a point source, when the subject is 'distant' from the bulb. Point sources give 'sharp' shadows, etc. A tube is not a point source, and so has a resulting light that gives softer shadows. The use of a fresnel lens changes things, and allows more light to be focused on the subject, and so, gives more of the qualities of a 'point source'. Shooting a lamp at screening material gives a broader source, and thereby 'softer' shadow edges.

This is simplifying things a whole lot.

If you want to buy 'cheap' things, I'd suggest you buy them with a mind that you will need to experiment with them to find out their actual photometric characteristics.

I bought such a package a while ago, listed at '3000' watt equivalent... well, that was given 2 set of 4 CFL lights, and a single 300 W CFL bulb. I bought it will the full knowledge that it was probably going to be 'less' than the advertised, and bought the package for the fixtures mostly, and to 'experiment' with things.

I've not been able to get back to that project to make more detailed measurements.

But the point of this post is.

Find out what you need in footcandles/lux for your project, then find information on the lights, and find which can deliver that amount of light... simple... well... if they published the information you need...
 
Understood.

I actually have a good friend who teaches lighting for film and video. He has no opinion on the cheap stuff tho as he's never used it.

I will be using a meter, etc.

I just haven't calculated exactly what I need as I'm still figuring out which camera to purchase and whether I can extend the greenscreen area a few feet further out.

If it's the cfl route, though, it's all rendered a bit moot by having a number of fixtures each with 5+ bulbs. Even if I needed to double up on a couple things from there... we're still talking about a very small fraction of the cost of kino lighting. I guess I'm just saying that I'm planning on overkill in terms of lighting if I go the cheap route... which is why I'm not concerned about that for now.


I am, however, concerned about the fact that I have very nearly run out of googlable stuff to read on the subject, and still not clear as to whether there is something inherently different about the bulbs that means screw base won't work. Is it that the ballast is in the bulb? Too expensive then to put a good one in each bulb?

So... I need tubes, then?

What about doing tube kino type... maybe with kino bulbs in key and fill, and doing all backlighting and screen lighting with the cfl's, or is this a bad idea?
 
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greg sage said:
What about doing tube kino type... maybe with kino bulbs in key and fill, and doing all backlighting and screen lighting with the cfl's, or is this a bad idea?
Click to expand...

Yes, the 'ballast' is built into to the base of the CFL. Otherwise they would not be 'drop in' replacements for incandescent bulbs. I think the frequency is high enough that it does not affect digital cameras, at least from my brief tests, I did not see any wyrd bars on my footage that I've taken with consumer, Home Depot CFLs.

If you build a bank sockets for CFL bulbs, you may have to put some sort of diffusion material over it to blend the several bulbs.

In the case of light to cover your greenscreen, because of the lenght of the tubes, the 'kino' type 4' tubs, seem to me to be a 'good' choice. Build up a backboard that can take 4 tubes... do it twice, and you have 8 feet of light 'bars'. Add some diffusion, and you should get an even light for the 'green screen'.

One of the issues with any of the fluorescents is the issue of CRI (and flicker but with electronic ballasts that should not be much of an issue...). A CRI of above 90-95 is recommended. And the basic color temperature. I tend to go for 'daylight'.

As for 'building things', that is DIY things, while most pro DP's use official name brand lights, you will often find them constructing (well maybe having 'the shop' construct such...) specialty lights when the need arises, or that fits their aesthetic needs.

It's just for no/low budget projects, the DIY may become more of a necessity.
 
Just an FYI... That 3000 watt kit you linked to is really a total of 675 watts.

For example, last week I shot a waste up single talent on green screen using 2 4x55w diva style lights for the green screen / 1 6x55w diva style light with 1/4 minus green gel and grid for the key light / 1 2x55w diva style light with 1/4 minus green gel and grid for the fill light / 1 bi-color 1000 LED for the back light.
 
Hmm... ok, thx.

I'll finish my measurements today, and then start getting into the specifics for this setup. I'm already thinking I'll need to do a little more since it's looking like it'll be 15' wide.

In the meantime, anyone know of any actual tests for the spectrum of various bulbs vs the kinos?
 
David W. Jones said:
Thats a large area to light if you are only going to be using screw-in CFL lamps.
Click to expand...

Which is why I'm starting to think more along the lines of banks of 4' tubes.

That can get costly quick, though.

Ok, took some measurements, and it's looking like I can squeek in 15' across. I'm figuring 8' high, and coming out 12' on the floor, so overall mat of 15'x20'.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but that seems about right if I want to let actors be filmed head to toe with a little margin on top and bottom, and be filmed in 16x9.

If those measurements are good (and they fit with just a couple feet to spare on each side in my living room if I move the couch out for the day. Tile floor in there, so minimal movement of screen)

Anyway, if those work, then I need to figure out a couple things. First is how far back the camera would need to be. I don't have it yet... still choosing between going with something like a xf100 or taking the budget down a notch to a hacked GH2 or a G10. In either case, I'm looking at shooting fairly wide andgle and looking for the fullest dof possible so the camera is more of a set it and forget it situation as people move around. Obviously, I can move it in for closeups, but what's a rough estimate of the distance the camera would need to be?

I'm figuring back wall... out 6 feet or so to where actors begin... then out another 6 feet to the edge (do I need deeper... like another 5 feet forward of greenscreen?) In either case, trying to get a general idea of how far back the camera's going to need to be so I can see if it will fit depending on orientation in the room.


From there, I can look at the total light output needed. Because of the width of the stage, I'm thinking I should have two back/hairlights. I'm thinking something along the lines of one bank of bulbs (not sure how many total) on either side of the screen to light the screen, and two banks hanging above pointing down about 3' out from the screen back... so halfway between the screen and the actors... which will help even out the screen lighting and also provide hair/back light for the actors.

... Then, of course, key and fill.

Thoughts?
 
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