Newbie Help: Shooting HD in Hockey Arena?

D

Dave Wells

New member
Hi All,

I've been a long time lurker here and just registered. I hope this is the right forum, if not could one of the mod's please move it accordingly.

Situation

I am a professional hockey coach and part of my job is to videotape games inside dimly lit hockey arenas. I then use my NLE (Pinnacle Studio 11 Ultimate) to render and burn to DVD for anaylsis by various personnel.

I am presently using a Sony HDR HC3 camcorder (HD) and it works OK, but is not spectacular. From a pure 'image perspective' it is not very professional either, especially when almost every other parent in the crowd is using a similar type of consumer camcorder. Aside from pure optics, I would like to have a camera that states "this guys is serious about video"... at least to the general lay person.

I am preparing to make the jump into a pro-sumer HD camcorder and have some questions that requires some expert knowledge.

First off, and this is one of my big concerns, should I be looking at a progressive or interlaced model?

I break down a lot of video and analyze on a frame by frame basis, so clarity is a key feature. I will often use the NLE software on my laptop hard drive, coupled with a shuttle wheel, to output to my HD projector. This allows easy transport of the image and the HC3 video has been 'ok' with this task but not spectacular.

From all my research it appears that progressive is the way I should go. Keep in mind that hockey is a fast moving sport and the lighting in most of the amateur arenas is typically not very good. I am also usually well away from teh ice surface to gain perspective, so a wider angle lens is helpful but not critical.

Since I have no method to calculate the lux I am wondering if this should be a worry? Zebra stripes set at 100 typically show up on the HC3 when flourescent lights hit the ice, if that is of any help?

The 3 models I have my eyes on include the JVC GY-HD100U, the Canon XL A1 and the Sony HDR FX1.

I have identified the JVC as my top prospect but I could be way off base, hence this post. The reason I like the JVC is its true progressive mode and also the super slo-motion option they advertise, something that could be hugely beneficial for me in certain teaching environments. [As an aside, the Sony super slo-mo is almost useless on my HC3]. I also like the possibility of recording direct to disk with the Firestore unit especially made for the JVC.

I know Canon and Sony advertise a 25f and 30f mode - is this truly the same as native 24p? NOTE: I have no plans to ever transfer any video to film, so that is not a consideration.

My budget, alas, is somewhat limited. I am looking to spend a max of CAD $3500 for the base camera and lens and I am looking at used units on e-bay at this time. I am open to other suggested sites or options from which to purchase.

Summary

Please give this noob some advice on how best to film high speed sports in less than ideal conditions. Interlaced or progressive? JVC, Canon or Sony?

There are so many options my head is reeling.

Thanks in advance.

Dave
 
I see a couple of problems with what you are wanting to shoot. The main issue is that you are shooting in low light. HD needs more light to expose correctly. In fact, the different between HD and SD mode on my JVC 110U is pretty dramatic. The other issue (directly related with the light issue) is that you want to shoot high framerates. Since it sounds like you want to shoot 60 FPS, you are going to need alot of light. 60 FPS sucks up double the amount of light as 30 FPS.

Also, the JVC 100 series only has 60 FPS in SD mode (it's actually in HDV record mode, but only records SD resolution.)

I hope this helps.

Matthew
 
You should decide whether you really need HD. Try shooting a game with a DVX (possible rent one?) and see if that's enough for you. If not your best options are an XH-A1 which is very high resolution, or an HVX for a bit more which does offer 60p. You should test out the HVX though to determine whether the light performance in 60p is good enough to be usable.
 
Thank you for your replies.

Do I NEED HD video? Strictly speaking, probably not. I believe that a good quality SD video could be adequate for my needs...

Having said that, I have a couple of considerations:

1) I am trying to separate myself from 'the competition' by using HD video and 2) I do not want to have to replace a camera in a couple of years once HD is the dominant format.
3) when I present video in front of a bunch of players and coaches, it would be great to 'wow' them with an ultra clear image, something nobody else is doing (ie. competitive advantage).

I have read great reviews of various SD cameras including the Canon XL2 and the Sony PD 170, both of which fall nicely into my price range. I have not watched any footage from either of these cameras so I cannot comment on their clarity.

I have read reviews on the HVX, including the one by a prominent member on this site. It looks like a very sweet camera but it's just outside my price range, especially when considering the P2 card costs.

I'm really confused about the 60 fps vs. 30 fps issue. I assume it is twice as much data being captured which means a better picture? Please advise.

At the end of the day, I really just want a camera that is flexible enough to take good, clear video in less than perfect lighting. It needs to be user friendly and I do not want it to be obselete in the next 2 or 3 years.

Please help.

Thanks again.
 
You should try to find someone who has the camera that you want to try, hire them to come out for an hour or two and run some tests. You'll get the experience of having someone who knows the camera try to get the best picture they can under your circumstances.

Maybe your venue will do something to help your lighting, maybe even replacing the lights with better bulbs might make a difference, and it would be a benefit to the team and audience as well.

You are on the right track to be shooting HD. I used to TD hockey games for NCHL and I can tell you, of all the sports out there, that little puck can be a hard target to follow. And I assume you are getting just a locked down wide shot of the rink for the team, so again, it's a little bitty dot on the screen, the more pixels you have the better.

You will want to go with the highest frame rate you can, and a fast shutter speed.
A fast shutter speed will decrease the amount of light you have to work with however, but it will also remove the blur and give you sharper freeze frames.

The most important thing for your application is to be able to slo-mo the action and freeze it. High Def will give you higher video resolution, and faster frame rates will give you more "samples of time" to evaluate when you slow down the video.


Personally I'd stay away from the JVC, but that's just my personal experience with the brand.

For your price range I'd take a serious look at this new Panasonic camera:
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=125362

It's god awfully ugly, but the tapeless workflow, inexpensive memory cards and long run times would be a huge benefit to what you are doing. You wouldn't have to worry about changing tape in the middle of the game. Plus it can record 1080i which is ideal for sports.
 
Macville said:
I see a couple of problems with what you are wanting to shoot. The main issue is that you are shooting in low light. HD needs more light to expose correctly.
Click to expand...

Keep in mind he is going to be shooting on one hell of a bounce card (the ice itself).
 
Dave Wells said:
1) I am trying to separate myself from 'the competition' by using HD video
Click to expand...

Separating yourself from the competition should be more than just shooting in HD or 60fps. Technique goes a long way, meaning you can give me a GL1 and I'll shoot better footage than someone with an HPX who doesn't have any technique.

2) I do not want to have to replace a camera in a couple of years once HD is the dominant format.
Click to expand...
IMO HDV is on it's way out. it will be around, but things are moving greatly towards solid state recording onto media cards.

3) when I present video in front of a bunch of players and coaches, it would be great to 'wow' them with an ultra clear image, something nobody else is doing (ie. competitive advantage).
Click to expand...
What are 'others doing'? How can you do it better?

With your limited budget it will be hard to accomplish all of your goals of what you want in a camera, but it will definitely be a step up from your current cam.

I'd suggest begging for a higher budget. I'd also suggest analyzing your 'competition' and look closely at what they are doing and how. What can you do creatively to separate yourself? It's not always about the format, it's about the operator. Saying that, 1080p or 60fps when shot well can easily 'wow' your audience.

All that said... your budget and needs = the JVC. I have never used one though, just looking at specs. (although looking at B&H, the cost of the JVC is $4300 and the HVX is $5200... isn't there a p2 card rebate going on? Other retailers probably have it cheaper too...)

Good luck!
 
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