newb focus questions

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kat.hayes

Active member
I’m going to use an a7s2 to get some footage of about 15-20 kids singing on a small stage in natural light outdoors. There will be a wall behind the stage about 10 feet away. I’m going to set the camera up wherever I am able to prior to it starting, though the kids will not be there when setting up. I will try to get a stand in if possible, though I’m not sure if anyone will be available. I plan to bring a 24-70 f4, I can also bring other lenses if needed, maybe a 70-200 f/4. My concern is getting sharp focus, while adding a bit of blur to the background if possible. I will focus on some calibration target during setup, though I want to obviously make sure that all of the kids and their eyes are in focus when they come onto the stage and while singing. I’m planning to be somewhere around f5.6 to be safe. Any suggestions or tips for what I am trying to do here?

Thanks in advance!
 
I'd say give up on the goal of "adding a bit of blur to the background" in the wide shot. 10 feet between likely-spread-out talent and background isn't much for a wide shot where you are probably even further away, and trying to make this happen is the single biggest impediment to the much more important goal of sharp focus on the talent.

The best thing you can do to make your video better is getting a second camera for close-ups and cutaways. Set up the first one unoperated and wide, and put yourself next to it on the tighter camera following the action. Sync via audio and do a simple edit cutting between the two shots.
 
Listen to nothing. Don't try to be artistic here and then miss the shot. It sounds like you are setting up an unmanned camera. So you need to be sure to get the shot.

To help your imagination for framing, print out a kids face to scale and tape it to a light stand or a mic stand and set the stand at the tallest kid's height. Place the stand at the edges of where the kids will be and check frame and focus. That way you don't have to depend upon an antsy kid to stand still while you sort out your shot.
 
I will be using a A73 handheld to get broll before the performance, during, and after while the A7S2 is on a tripod with a mic capturing the performance. I'm guessing the A7S2 will be about 7-10 feet away from the kids.

The kids will be standing in what I'm guessing 2-3 rows on the small stage. So maybe I keep the A7s2 wide the entire time and use the A73 handheld to focus on different kids during the performance to cut to them? I didn't even think about doing that...I was thinking of using the A73 during the performance for photos.
 
I would also use f/8+ to be safe if shooting in the FF mode on the static shot.

Depending on how they are arranged, you could be just a bit soft in one area at f/5.6 with the full-frame camera.
 
What do you mean by " if shooting in the FF mode on the static shot." Do you mean as opposed to shooting in the APC-S cropped mode?
 
Yes, but it also depends on the lenses you'd be using and any chosen apertures in the two modes, but either way I'm basically saying that f/5.6 might not be as safe as you'd like it to be (although I also see you'd like a little bur too, but I would choose focus in this situation if you're leaving the camera on a tripod and no one's monitoring it).

Like what if the group moves during the performance?
 
I'm using all FF lenses. Haven't decided on focal lengths. I do have 12-24, 35, 55, 20-70, 70-200...any thoughts in general?
 
Really depends on your own location.

If I couldn't film the performance from the back from an elevated POV (in which I'd probably use the 20-70mm or 70-200mm), I would normally set something up in front of the stage so people don't walk in front of the camera during the show or I don't clip a bunch of heads.

Up front, I could see using the 12-24mm, which would also provide deeper focus. But any artistic blur would be out the window unless the wall or a particular background was like 100+ feet behind them.

In any case, I suggest being prepared to use a zoom.

9/10 times in the real world of production you're not going to have access to the position you want.
 
Bring all your zooms. As NorBro said, you can never count on anything. Even if you think you have it all sorted out in advance, on shoot day, something may change and you may need to shoot from a location other than what you had worked out.
 
Now you're learning why live events are almost deliberately designed to make bad video and audio a standard result. No rehearsal, no staging for camera, no lighting or sound considerations for camera. Unpredictable venue and organizers.
I avoid shooting any live events as much as possible for the reasons above. You, as the video person, are expected to capture professional quality, clean, clear audio and well lit and composed images yet every single factor organizing and executing
the live event are conspiring against you being able to do that.

This is also why I have tremendous respect for talented wedding and event videographers. When you see a wedding or live event on video that is well shot and competently executed, it's amazingly difficult to
make that happen from the videographers point of view.

You've been given solid advice here as far as the camera logistics, good luck. Hopefully you wont be at the mercy of an incompetent sound mixer/PA minder who might give you a board feed that actually works for video.
 
If I had the choice of setting up all the way in the back at an elevated position and being able to patch into the audio VS. placing the camera in front of the audience, and in front of the stage, what would be the better choice from a visual perspective? This is assuming that the background is still only about 10 ft behind the performers on stage. In the back I would need to use a larger focal length to zoom in, and up close I would need to shoot wider. What would be the pros/cons visually?

You also mentioned that the 12-24mm would provide deeper focus. It is late, perhaps I am not realizing the obvious, though how does the 12-24 get deeper focus then say the 24-70?

Thanks!

NorBro said:
Really depends on your own location.

If I couldn't film the performance from the back from an elevated POV (in which I'd probably use the 20-70mm or 70-200mm), I would normally set something up in front of the stage so people don't walk in front of the camera during the show or I don't clip a bunch of heads.

Up front, I could see using the 12-24mm, which would also provide deeper focus. But any artistic blur would be out the window unless the wall or a particular background was like 100+ feet behind them.

In any case, I suggest being prepared to use a zoom.

9/10 times in the real world of production you're not going to have access to the position you want.
Click to expand...
 
I just realized, my original plan was to use my second camera to get broll and cutaways. How would I also use it to get closeups of the different kids AND synch it in post along with the footage being shot from the A cam? Do I need to start recording both at the same time with a slate type board sound? My plan was to capture lots of short clips with my handheld cam, and not keep it recording the whole time. Do I just need to start both at the same time and import all that footage from the second cam and do lots of editing to get only the parts I want?

Thanks for any info on this.
 
As far as the lenses...

If you're up close to the stage and using around 12-15mm, there is just no depth of field to be had vs. if you're far away and zooming in which is creating more shallow DOF (you'll get more of that blur).

Visually, I'd want to be further away so it creates a perspective from the audience's POV (a wide shot from there and not from like 10-20 feet away), but any angle would work if done right. I'm assuming the main goal is to capture everything successfully.

As far as editing...

Yes, this is a difficult part for videographers/editors if they aren't working with timecode.

Even if you run both cameras, record/stop at the same time (which you really should to make your life easier), everything you do in post will be manually and it will be a lot of work. You will sync frames and sound by eye and ear, and you have to be a good editor to do a clean job.

Also, the a7SII has the recording limit, right? So you'd have to run back and start it again after 30 minutes unless the performance runs less than that. (Does the a7III have the limit? I don't remember anymore. I know the a6400 doesn't.)

And audio...obviously make sure the board isn't providing you a LINE output (unless you have extra audio equipment you're using).
 
kat.hayes said:
I just realized, my original plan was to use my second camera to get broll and cutaways. How would I also use it to get closeups of the different kids AND synch it in post along with the footage being shot from the A cam? Do I need to start recording both at the same time with a slate type board sound? My plan was to capture lots of short clips with my handheld cam, and not keep it recording the whole time. Do I just need to start both at the same time and import all that footage from the second cam and do lots of editing to get only the parts I want?

Thanks for any info on this.
Click to expand...

Which editing software are you using?
 
NorBro said:
As far as the lenses...

If you're up close to the stage and using around 12-15mm, there is just no depth of field to be had vs. if you're far away and zooming in which is creating more shallow DOF (you'll get more of that blur).

Visually, I'd want to be further away so it creates a perspective from the audience's POV (a wide shot from there and not from like 10-20 feet away), but any angle would work if done right. I'm assuming the main goal is to capture everything successfully.

As far as editing...

Yes, this is a difficult part for videographers/editors if they aren't working with timecode.

Even if you run both cameras, record/stop at the same time (which you really should to make your life easier), everything you do in post will be manually and it will be a lot of work. You will sync frames and sound by eye and ear, and you have to be a good editor to do a clean job.

Also, the a7SII has the recording limit, right? So you'd have to run back and start it again after 30 minutes unless the performance runs less than that. (Does the a7III have the limit? I don't remember anymore. I know the a6400 doesn't.)

And audio...obviously make sure the board isn't providing you a LINE output (unless you have extra audio equipment you're using).
Click to expand...

OMG -- thanks for reminding me of the a7s2 recording limit!!!! If I need to start it up again, while I still have the A73 still recording, there will be a brief difference in what both cams recorded. What is the best way to handle that in post to synch them back up?

Thanks!
 
By using your good ole fashioned eyes and ears, haha.

If you time it right and wait by the camera, it could be just 2-3 seconds off, which is a minor fix.

Personally, I'd rent a recorder for both cameras. (And also consider any overheating in the a7SII.)
 
You can sync the two cameras output fairly easily using the multicam feature. You certainly don't HAVE to do it by eye and ear. There might be a little massaging to be done but the multicam features in your NLE will do most of the heavy lifting. A gap in the recording is not an issue for multicam synching. I do it often. You MUST have a reference audio recording which can be into the static camera or a separate audio device. Then, ALL cameras must be recording audio which doesn't need to be fantastic. The multicam then compares the waveforms of the audio from the cameras to your reference audio and synchs them up using the waveforms. If it isn't perfect you can nudge clips into place later. You can get some drifting but I have done this with files over an hour long with no drifting.
You don't have to be a genius and start the cameras at exactly the same time. The multicam doesn't care. Once they are all aligned in your editor you then tell it to refer to the reference audio and it will ignore each cameras audio in preference for the reference audio.
There are plenty of tutorials online.
Here is one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jxz1JR26vpc
I haven't watched this just to be clear.
Good luck.
 
Multi-camera editing like in that link is much easier when someone is just sitting in a quiet room and talking to one camera.

Shooting live b-roll (performers, audience, signs, equipment, etc.) and having various angles and close-ups, etc. of a performance could become a nightmare in post.

The tried-and-true application for myself has been to start recording on all cameras (which would be next to each other at the time) and clapping loud and clear several times for an obvious spike in the audio, and just letting them run.
 
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