New to outfield/location recording - need some help

[PPeter]

Hello everyone. This is my first post on the forums. I've been dealing with audio editing, recording, mixing, sampling etc... for 10+ years but only in studio. I'm becoming more and more interested in films, particularly the sound part. I realized I need something new and figured out I could utilize my current skills If I started to get some experience on outfield/location recording. I've been trying to get some information on this from my acquaintances but none of them could help me to start off this as basically all of them are studio guys. Having read several topics here, I admire how knowledgeable lots of you are on this so I would like to get some help from you.

Aim :

• First, go out to the woods record bird sounds, spend time at the railway station to record train sounds, get on the subway record the sound of crowd...things like this. I think in English it's called ambience (correct me if I'm wrong).
• Less important but may be good to know how to record voice when recording film. I might know someone who will need help on sound for his films.

Equipment : All of my equipments are studio stuff. None of them is good for this. I've ordered a Tascam DR-40 with a windshield which I think is going to be enough to start with - based on the reviews I read. As its got XLR inputs what do you think could be a good microphone choice for me to achieve better quality than the built-in mics? Budget wise I would say maximum 300 EUR, I cannot spend more on that at the moment.

Thanks in advance for the help!

Peter

 

[Jema]

Hello Peter, and welcome to the forum.

Could you perhaps specify as to what your questions are? You want some equipment advice, but are you looking for something more?

First of all, I highly recommend that you read some of the common books on field recording - do some searches. They will tell you the basics and much more. Also read the stickies at this part of the forum.

Regarding equipment, you want something primarily for SFX and ambience, but that also could do film dialogue if necessary?
In that case, disregarding your current budget for a moment, what you want to have as a short term goal is a 2-4 channel recorder and possibly a mixer (you need good preamps, meters and limiters), isolating headphones, a boom pole and some stands, zeppelins for wind protection, and a few different mics (one or two dynamics for really loud stuff, at least one good shotgun, and some condensers for stereo or ms).
Some of these things can be gotten a bit cheaper for fx recording compared to film dialogue, since you might get away with more weight and a bit less durability, and some less optimal powering solutions (depending on how and where you want to record of course).

As for your immediate equipment needs, first of all, what gear do you already own from your studio work? You say they wont be useful for this, but they might do ok as an intermediary step until you can put down a bit more money (buy once, cry once).

 

[GaryNattrass]

Hi and welcome to the forum.

As you say the tascam DR-40 with it's internal mic's will be good as a starter but the addition of some external mic's will be more flexible.

Personally I would add two mic's one to enable better stereo recording and the other to enable better voice and mono recording but as you have a limited budget the addition of a mono small shotgun such as the AT875R will give you better ability to record dialogue and mon FX with the internal mic's for ambience. You will need to add a pistol grip such as the rode PG2 and a softie like the rode WS6 and possibly a small boom such as the compact gitzo carbon fibre.

There are AT875R mics on UK e-bay for £99 inc delivery at the moment and the PG2 and WS6 will cost you around the same, the boom poles will cost you more but it may be that you can get by with a cheaper one for starting with.

In time I would add a sony ECM-MS957 stereo mic to enable better off recorder stereo ambience and sound effect recording but you will also need a grip and wind shield for that too, I use the rode PG1, a foam wind gag and a softie slip over cover.

You will also need some decent headphones but I assume you have access to some from your studio work.

I use both the AT875R and the sony as part of my personal kit and find it a good flexible set-up which will cover most things, I had a rode NTG1 but it didn't sound very good to me and my recorder is an old marantz although I have been looking at the tascam as an upgrade for four track recording.

 

[BRH]

• Less important but may be good to know how to record voice when recording film. I might know someone who will need help on sound for his films.

All of my equipments are studio stuff. None of them is good for this. I've ordered a Tascam DR-40 with a windshield which I think is going to be enough to start with - based on the reviews I read.

Peter

You have it backwards. Recording dialog is much more important than recording ambient sound. Take you DR-40 into your studio and record dialog with it and see of you are happy.. my guess is you will not be happy. There is no shortcut.

 

[Jema]

You have it backwards. Recording dialog is much more important than recording ambient sound. Take you DR-40 into your studio and record dialog with it and see of you are happy.. my guess is you will not be happy. There is no shortcut.

I interpreted it as if dialogue recording was of lesser priority for him ​in regards to what he is after, not in general. But I agree that the quality of the voice is more important than that of the fx or ambiance, which can be processed heavily and still sound good.

 

[PPeter]

Thanks guys for your quick responses!

Jema :

Hello Peter, and welcome to the forum.

Could you perhaps specify as to what your questions are? You want some equipment advice, but are you looking for something more?

Yes, equipment advice but I would be more than happy if you could share the way, your workflow you do FX recordings when you already have the necessary equipments.

First of all, I highly recommend that you read some of the common books on field recording - do some searches. They will tell you the basics and much more. Also read the stickies at this part of the forum.

Can you recommend some of those which you’ve found useful?

Regarding equipment, you want something primarily for SFX and ambience, but that also could do film dialogue if necessary?

Yes, both.

As for your immediate equipment needs, first of all, what gear do you already own from your studio work? You say they wont be useful for this, but they might do ok as an intermediary step until you can put down a bit more money (buy once, cry once).

At the moment, I’ve got 2x AKG P200 mic that I have been using for vocals, Shure SM57 for guitars, SM7B for ‘darker’ character vocals. They go through an RME QuadMic preamp to my RME Multiface 2 interface (RME stuff are expensive but I would recommend to anybody ). Rest of them are really music related but sometimes come handy when creating noises. Outboard analog delays, modular synths, Virtual Analog synths. Besides the hardwares, during the last couple of years I’ve spent like 2000 pounds on top quality plugins (reverbs, EQ, saturator, transient shapers, phase alignment tools…etc.). These are extremely useful if processing recordings. Let me know if I can help you somehow.





GaryNattrass,

Hi and welcome to the forum.

As you say the tascam DR-40 with it's internal mic's will be good as a starter but the addition of some external mic's will be more flexible.

Yes, this was the idea to start.

Personally I would add two mic's one to enable better stereo recording and the other to enable better voice and mono recording but as you have a limited budget the addition of a mono small shotgun such as the AT875R will give you better ability to record dialogue and mon FX with the internal mic's for ambience. You will need to add a pistol grip such as the rode PG2 and a softie like the rode WS6 and possibly a small boom such as the compact gitzo carbon fibre.

There are AT875R mics on UK e-bay for £99 inc delivery at the moment and the PG2 and WS6 will cost you around the same, the boom poles will cost you more but it may be that you can get by with a cheaper one for starting with.

I checked demos for this AT875R and it seems to be quite good, thanks for the tip. I will search for the PG2 and WS6 I haven’t read of these before.

In time I would add a sony ECM-MS957 stereo mic to enable better off recorder stereo ambience and sound effect recording but you will also need a grip and wind shield for that too, I use the rode PG1, a foam wind gag and a softie slip over cover.

Is there such a big difference in terms of the quality of the built-in vs. the sony mic?

You will also need some decent headphones but I assume you have access to some from your studio work.

I’ve had a lot of headphones but so far the Sony MDR 7506 is the best for me. It’s really precise when it comes to EQ the low-end frequencies or just minor touch the dynamics. Should be fine for this application.

I use both the AT875R and the sony as part of my personal kit and find it a good flexible set-up which will cover most things, I had a rode NTG1 but it didn't sound very good to me and my recorder is an old marantz although I have been looking at the tascam as an upgrade for four track recording.

Do you have any recordings that I could check?

EDIT : excuse for my English, I'm not native speaker

 

[paulears]

The Sony mic is M/S, but presented in a L/R format. The benefit is good sound in both mono and stereo. Many of the portable recorders have two cardioid mics in an X/Y format, which often produces a less useful forward facing stereo pattern - the left starts to peter out before the right comes in, giving a kind of 'hole' in the middle which is frequently the most important direction. M/S has a forward facing mic, and a sidewards facing figure 8 pattern mic. The stereo effect can be quite prominent, but it doesn't have the 'hole' - so mono is not a problem. Location ambience, often called wild tracks, are quite tricky to record properly as you need excellent wind rejection because your recording levels are higher - bringing up any unwanted sound too. Recording this kind of thing is actually quite difficult and a specialist area. Mics for recording voice are quite different, as are the techniques. We cannot tell you which is more important - it depends on what you need. To a sound effects producer, obviously it's location background, to a more normal recordist, it's voice. Very different jobs. With stereo location effects recording - like your example of trains, then it's usual to keep the microphone static and let trains go past you. Recording a mobile voice however, could mean it's mono, and you follow the sound. Reversing these examples is horrible. Choosing the best one for each recording is the skill! If a camera follows a steam train out of a station, the camera moves, so should the sound move too, or stay static? Always a judgement call!

ps Your English is fine!

 

[Rick R]

The DR-40 is a good recorder, which would likely sound OK recording sources with a medium to high SPL level. However that and most other budget recorders have 'cheap' noisy preamps, so for recording low level SPL bird/nature sounds, a high-quality external preamp(s) and high quality external microphone is recommended. The DR-40 will work good with an external pro preamp at +4dB line level via it's XLR/1/4" combo connectors. (Mic/line switch on the recorder's side panel.
Unfortunately many studio mics are not designed for production dialog recording, though your OH drum mics (normally SD condensers) can sometimes be used for interior dialog. Your SM7 should work as a VO mic, but in that case, use your best studio preamps.

 

[GaryNattrass]

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=DH8mVouKkhg

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=NbvCcjrAueI

both feature a single AT875 r straight into a camera
and all the prodsound on this was an AT875 on a boom operated by the students
http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=_C5zy1l4c_U

 

[Noiz2]

You have it backwards. Recording dialog is much more important than recording ambient sound. Take you DR-40 into your studio and record dialog with it and see of you are happy.. my guess is you will not be happy. There is no shortcut.

True IF you are the production mixer. If your an FX recordist then knowing how to get ambiences is more important.

 

[Jema]

First of all, I highly recommend that you read some of the common books on field recording - do some searches. They will tell you the basics and much more. Also read the stickies at this part of the forum.
Can you recommend some of those which you’ve found useful?

Look at the books recommended on this page:
http://jwsoundgroup.net/index.php?/topic/5940-ultimate-beginners-guide-to-recording/

As for your immediate equipment needs, first of all, what gear do you already own from your studio work? You say they wont be useful for this, but they might do ok as an intermediary step until you can put down a bit more money (buy once, cry once).
At the moment, I’ve got 2x AKG P200 mic that I have been using for vocals, Shure SM57 for guitars, SM7B for ‘darker’ character vocals. They go through an RME QuadMic preamp to my RME Multiface 2 interface (RME stuff are expensive but I would recommend to anybody ). Rest of them are really music related but sometimes come handy when creating noises. Outboard analog delays, modular synths, Virtual Analog synths. Besides the hardwares, during the last couple of years I’ve spent like 2000 pounds on top quality plugins (reverbs, EQ, saturator, transient shapers, phase alignment tools…etc.). These are extremely useful if processing recordings. Let me know if I can help you somehow.

The SM57 could be good for louder stuff or things where a mic could be harmed and you don't want to risk a more expensive option. The P200 might be useful for some stereo ambience indoors where theres no wind, but that depends on how noisy they are (probably a lot better than the internals on the recorder though). As mentioned, the SM7B is a good VO mic. You could probably use your RME-interface with a macbook, but that might be a hinderance in portability. Other than that you will probably need new stuff.

Now, for what is possibly a budget and beginner-friendly setup (Mainly SFX):

SD mixpre-D feeding a DR-40 (don't neglect always having the recorder on you, even if only using the internals - the best mic is always the one you have available at any certain moment).
Rode NTG-3 in a rode zeppelin or rycote S-series.
Two cardioid mics for stereo, or an MS-setup, and there are many budget choices here that I'm not very familiar with. Wind protection and shock mounts also needed.
An AT4053b or Audix SCX-1 for a hyper, possibly their own shock mount (film work).
Rode or K-tek boom 12'+ long, aluminum.
Sennheiser HD25-1 (don't skip on your reference!)
Rent wireless as needed.

If the budget was there, here's what I would get as primarily an SFX setup, but that could also do some film work.

Recorder: Zaxcom Maxx, Zaxcom Nomad, or SD664. Budget choice would be the edirol R-4 Pro or Tascam DR-680, possibly modified by Busman.
Mics: Sennheiser MKH8040 and MKH30 in an MS-setup (possibly exchanging the MKH8040 agains an MKH8050 hyper for more film work). MKH8060 or Schoeps Cmit5u for a shotgun. I would prbably want two omnis as well, not too shure which, and one or two contact mics.
Wind protection: Rycote zeppelin with lyres. On a budget, the Rode zeppelin (I think it can be configured for MS with some extra equipment).
Boom pole: Any 12'+ long carbon pole from VDB, K-tek, PSC or Ambient. Budget choice would be a Gitzo pole or K-tec aluminum.
Headphones: Sennheiser HD25-1.
Wireless for film work: Zaxcom or lectrosonics systems with COS11 or Tram50 as lavs + 2-3 Countryman B6. On a budget, the Sennheiser G3 with Oscar Soundtech lavs. You would need at least two wireless systems, and that could easily get increased to 6+.

After that there's also cables, bags, batteries etc.

 

[PPeter]

Jema:

Look at the books recommended on this page:
http://jwsoundgroup.net/index.php?/topic/5940-ultimate-beginners-guide-to-recording/

I have just ordered one of them off ebay. Though they have an ISBN number, as I’ve experienced earlier, none of the book stores here can import books…

The P200 might be useful for some stereo ambience indoors where theres no wind…

The P200 is an extremely sensitive microphone. It picks up the most silent noises based on my experiences. I use it with very low gain and of course, with a pop filter so I do not have to spend hours on setting up a de-esser and/or a ‘surgical EQ’.

Now, for what is possibly a budget and beginner-friendly setup (Mainly SFX):

SD mixpre-D feeding a DR-40 (don't neglect always having the recorder on you, even if only using the internals - the best mic is always the one you have available at any certain moment).
Rode NTG-3 in a rode zeppelin or rycote S-series.
Two cardioid mics for stereo, or an MS-setup, and there are many budget choices here that I'm not very familiar with. Wind protection and shock mounts also needed.
An AT4053b or Audix SCX-1 for a hyper, possibly their own shock mount (film work).
Rode or K-tek boom 12'+ long, aluminum.
Sennheiser HD25-1 (don't skip on your reference!)
Rent wireless as needed.

Wow! Long list Question on this. Will the DR-40 mic inputs are going to be good for these mics? I mean the ones which need phantom power and do not have battery, or a dynamic which need huge amount of gain…

If the budget was there…

Saved this list so I can open up this list when money is no object


GaryNattrass:

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=DH8mVouKkhg

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=NbvCcjrAueI

both feature a single AT875 r straight into a camera
and all the prodsound on this was an AT875 on a boom operated by the students
http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=_C5zy1l4c_U

I will check them tonight. Thanks for sharing it!

 

[Jema]

Originally Posted by Jema
Now, for what is possibly a budget and beginner-friendly setup (Mainly SFX):

SD mixpre-D feeding a DR-40 (don't neglect always having the recorder on you, even if only using the internals - the best mic is always the one you have available at any certain moment).
Rode NTG-3 in a rode zeppelin or rycote S-series.
Two cardioid mics for stereo, or an MS-setup, and there are many budget choices here that I'm not very familiar with. Wind protection and shock mounts also needed.
An AT4053b or Audix SCX-1 for a hyper, possibly their own shock mount (film work).
Rode or K-tek boom 12'+ long, aluminum.
Sennheiser HD25-1 (don't skip on your reference!)
Rent wireless as needed.




Wow! Long list Question on this. Will the DR-40 mic inputs are going to be good for these mics? I mean the ones which need phantom power and do not have battery, or a dynamic which need huge amount of gain…

The DR-40 is a low cost handheld recorder, and the preamps as such are a bit noisy, which is a real problem if you want to do quiet fx. That's why i recommended to use the mixpre-D in front, feeding it a line level signal (the DR-40 is one of a few handhelds that can actually accept a +4dB line level, others can usually only take -10). The mixpre is a very good entry level mixer with two channels of quite clean gain, good metering and very usable limiters. It's also sturdy so it will hold for 10+ years.
Regarding the mics, the NTG-3 and hypers were primarily for film work. A shotgun is very good for fx too, but in that case I honestly don't know if the NTG is the best offer in regards to noise and sound quality - do some searches. It is a very good value for film work though.

What I also forgot in that list was one or two contact mics - they can be very cheap and give quite interesting results.

 

[paulears]

Sennheiser MKH8040 and MKH30 in an MS-setup

Great system - BUT - only if you can use a recorder or mixer with a matrix. Without the decoding, I've never, ever managed to be able to predict the stereo result. Having mid in one ear and side in the other is horrible!

 

[Jema]

Good that you pointed that out Paul - it slipped my mind!
From what i know, the simplest solution lies in sound devices products. The SD302 can monitor in MS, as well as all the 7xx-line of recorders. The older MP-2 could (discontinued version of the mixpre), and I think the mixpre-D can, but I'm not 100 % sure. Also, you might want to think about wether you want to record the channels as MS or as converted XY, as some may only output one or the other. I would opt for the latter, as you don't want to do an MS-conversion every time you want to listen to or use an effect from a library. An XY-track that was recorded by MS can always be returned to MS for adjustments.

 

[Jema]

To satisfy my own curiosity I looked up some recommendations of mics for stereo setups on a budget (not ms).

Three mics that came up more frequently were Oktava MK012 (also a popular low budget choice for film with a hyper cap, but very sensitive to wind and handling), the Rode NT5 (there's also the NT55 which comes with cardioid and omni capsules and pad filters, and the NT6 which has a detached capsule and body for small rigs), and the Line Audio CM3 (a sub-cardioid or wide cardioid).
They are all quite cheap, light and small, and while they may struggle a bit noise-wise with very demanding stuff, they will probably do fine in most situations and a considerable upgrade to the internals on a handheld recorder. From what I've gathered they are all pretty neutral, but small differences exist of course (rent or borrow, or buy used so you can sell without much loss if you don't like it). They all have bit low output (especially the CM3), so you really need clean preamps to crank up the gain without raising the noise floor too much.

There are of course quite a few other good alternatives, many from audio technica such as the discontinued AT3032, which have a very low noise floor (they have been replaced with a similar but much more expensive mic).

For wind protection, there's the baby ball gag if you don't want to go full zep.

 

[Jema]

A few stereo and ms mics on a budget:

Sony ECM-MS957 (true noise floor about 25dB A-weighted)
Audio Technica AT8022
Audio Technica BP4025
Rode NT4
Superlux s502
Superlux e523

These all have a bit higher noise floors (20-25dB) and not as flexible as having a SDC-pair, but a single mic is of course more compact and easier to use. Some also have battery options (though this reduces performance slightly).

 

[PPeter]

A few stereo and ms mics on a budget:

Sony ECM-MS957 (true noise floor about 25dB A-weighted)
Audio Technica AT8022
Audio Technica BP4025
Rode NT4
Superlux s502
Superlux e523

These all have a bit higher noise floors (20-25dB) and not as flexible as having a SDC-pair, but a single mic is of course more compact and easier to use. Some also have battery options (though this reduces performance slightly).

Thank you! I checked demos on Youtube but I would need to try them before buying. I asked around here in different stores and they say it's not possible to rent one for 1-2 days I'm a bit puzzled I do not even find someone here who could help me in person. We're a small country.

EDIT :

Could you please tell me a practical example/scenario of using any of these microphones attached to the DR-40 when and why is it better then the build in ones? Thanks!

 

[paulears]

All of these recorders were designed with stereo audio recording as the main feature. Forget video for a moment. People who wanted to record live sources with internal balance (read this as choirs, orchestras, acoustic jazz bands, barbers shop etc) wanted a simple, but good sounding system. This usually meant small condenser mics in an X/Y or similar setup. Even budget condensers sound pretty good when used this way. Building them into one compact unit made a lot of sense, and you see them being used for these kinds of things all the time. These choirs and orchestras are quite loud - some VERY loud, so gain isn't a big requirement. Video people have now latched onto these as a 'cure-all' and they're plugging in external mics and pointing them at distant sources - too quiet, so up goes the gain. This is then cited as a dreadful thing, and the unit gets slagged off, when they really don't deserve it.

As for uses for external mics, you have so many to choose from. Video sound recordists who want realistic soundscapes like M/S because they can adjust the stereo width back in the studio once they see the images - so they match. Audio only sound recordists like M/S because they too can change the width, but they change it to create the most realistic result. It's also handy when they have to record in less than idea circumstances. If I record an orchestra with very little time to rehearse or adjust mic placement, M/S can save the bacon. Now I can record multitrack on location, I often record M/S to two tracks and use X/Y from a slightly different location - I can pick later. Video work for me means on camera audio is usually for scene setting, and if I need spot dialogue or effects then it's a shotgun - recorded onto one channel of the camera, or if the camera audio needs to be stereo, then I record to something external - and to be honest, I'm not too worried what it is because I rarely work a shotgun so far away that gain has to make up for good boom technique. I don't know the superlux mics, but the difference between a coincident pair and ORTF is subtle, and to many people, they simply can't hear it because the addition of time delays gets masked very easily. The other issue is that to hear these kinds of differences you need monitor speakers and listening acoustics that allow it. The monitors commonly used on video editors frankly don't cut it! Often, by a very long way! In fact, my quick scan of youtube with a vectorscope shows that stereo is handled VERY badly. Mono, ultra-wide stereo, level mismatches, limited frequency response seem so common. Interesting, this!

 

[GaryNattrass]

Oh bugger don't look at any of my mixes on your vectorscope Paul as liberal use of the A/B-wide control on the AMS Neve digital consoles will make the S signal go ballistic! ;0)

Ha Ha used to get a call from CH5 compliance every other week on Family Affairs as the chromatec S signal went into the red, I politely informed them I was mixing in pro logic surround and to hit the mono check button!