rob norton
Veteran
I don't know what I'm talking about! I don't think I could use the tech anyway, I'm not a big slow motion fan.
New RED V-RAPTOR 8K VV 120FPS Camera
- Thread starter Teddy_Dem
- Start date
I don't know what I'm talking about! I don't think I could use the tech anyway, I'm not a big slow motion fan.
ahalpert
Major Contributor
Also you may lose your widest focal length as a possibility. Cant go wider than your widest!
also sometimes the edges of the lens have nice rendering. I turn off "active stabilization" (digital 10% crop for IBIS) on my sony 50 1.2 on the A7SIII because the edges have that lovely bit of swirl... like voigtlander maybe...but i use it the rest of the time
This sounds like crazy talk. Although you could record 48fps and do 24fps from that with 180-degree shutter. But you'll be stuck with 360-degree shutter if you use it as 48fps?
rob norton
Veteran
Sorry I went off the rails - back to reality!
ahalpert
Major Contributor
That's a question. Will people start mastering in 8K. Aren't they starting to make 8K TVs?
But even for 4K... I'd guess you wouldn't notice a detail difference between 8K and 6K capture. But probably you would between 8K and 4K
NorBro
Major Contributor
People already are (small amount) and I'd imagine more will continue to do so.
Affordable camera and panel prices and improved network/data speeds will force the adaptation itself, naturally.
Other stuff always gets phased out as life continues to move forward with new organisms, and machines.
Affordable camera and panel prices and improved network/data speeds will force the adaptation itself, naturally.
Other stuff always gets phased out as life continues to move forward with new organisms, and machines.
ahalpert
Major Contributor
Actually it might not be so crazy. You just record 240fps with 360-degree shutter
If you integrate 5 frames together, you have the motion blur of 1/48 shutter. Then you skip the next 5. Integrate the 5 after that and so on. You end up pulling out 24fps 180-degree shutter.
Or you toss every other frame and you have 120fps 180-degree shutter.
You max out using every frame with 240fps 360-degree shutter.
You can get narrower or wider shutter angles of 24fps by integrating more or fewer frames
jonpais
Well-known member
TrueCut is just one example of a virtual, or synthetic shutter (actually a whole suite of tools) currently being used to 'motion grade' films in order to reduce the appearance of judder.
"TrueCut motion grading gives filmmakers the ability to cinematically fine-tune motion blur, judder and frame-rate appearance. Used as a part of the creative process, TrueCut motion grading empowers filmmakers to shoot at any frame-rate, and then deliver at a cinematically tuned high frame-rate allowing for the creation of a broader set of motion appearances than previously possible".
RealD's TrueMotion operates on a similar principle:
"The idea behind the synthetic shutter is to capture with a 360-degree shutter angle at a higher frame rate and then down sample to a lower frame rate, applying a digital filter (synthetic shutter) that removes the aliasing and judder between the capture Nyquist frequency (half the capture frame rate) and the down sampled Nyquist frequency. The bigger the difference in these two frame rates, the more judder is removed.
The synthetic shutter corresponds to a theoretical camera acquiring at the lower frame rate and is implemented mathematically, which means it can have negative values and extend beyond a single original frame. In signal processing, this is a simple finite impulse response filter that can be implemented very efficiently.
According to the analysis by Davis, in order to achieve a “through the window” realism to motion capture, the camera frame rate would need to be 1200 fps and the projection system run at 240 fps. Obviously, this is impractical today.
As a result, Davis presented a tool that allows the content creator to create different waveforms for the synthetic shutter to achieve the artistic effect they are looking for. He recommends acquiring content at a 360-degree shutter angle and 120 fps or higher. In post production, the synthetic shutter can be applied to create choppy or soft, cinematic looks. And, creating derivative versions like 24, 25 or 29.97 fps can be done easily with minimal judder". - RealD develops synthetic shutter solution for HFR
It is awesome technology - and a creative tool - and PixelWorks, the Silicon Valley company responsible for TrueCut, is in ongoing dialogue with a number of prominent studios and streaming service providers. During an earnings call in February of this year, the CFO said "...We believe that we're on track towards securing an important first win with TrueCut in the United States". Could he be referring to Netflix? No one knows!
Here's a beautifully shot demo using TrueMotion:
https://vimeo.com/228442493
"TrueCut motion grading gives filmmakers the ability to cinematically fine-tune motion blur, judder and frame-rate appearance. Used as a part of the creative process, TrueCut motion grading empowers filmmakers to shoot at any frame-rate, and then deliver at a cinematically tuned high frame-rate allowing for the creation of a broader set of motion appearances than previously possible".
RealD's TrueMotion operates on a similar principle:
"The idea behind the synthetic shutter is to capture with a 360-degree shutter angle at a higher frame rate and then down sample to a lower frame rate, applying a digital filter (synthetic shutter) that removes the aliasing and judder between the capture Nyquist frequency (half the capture frame rate) and the down sampled Nyquist frequency. The bigger the difference in these two frame rates, the more judder is removed.
The synthetic shutter corresponds to a theoretical camera acquiring at the lower frame rate and is implemented mathematically, which means it can have negative values and extend beyond a single original frame. In signal processing, this is a simple finite impulse response filter that can be implemented very efficiently.
According to the analysis by Davis, in order to achieve a “through the window” realism to motion capture, the camera frame rate would need to be 1200 fps and the projection system run at 240 fps. Obviously, this is impractical today.
As a result, Davis presented a tool that allows the content creator to create different waveforms for the synthetic shutter to achieve the artistic effect they are looking for. He recommends acquiring content at a 360-degree shutter angle and 120 fps or higher. In post production, the synthetic shutter can be applied to create choppy or soft, cinematic looks. And, creating derivative versions like 24, 25 or 29.97 fps can be done easily with minimal judder". - RealD develops synthetic shutter solution for HFR
It is awesome technology - and a creative tool - and PixelWorks, the Silicon Valley company responsible for TrueCut, is in ongoing dialogue with a number of prominent studios and streaming service providers. During an earnings call in February of this year, the CFO said "...We believe that we're on track towards securing an important first win with TrueCut in the United States". Could he be referring to Netflix? No one knows!
Here's a beautifully shot demo using TrueMotion:
https://vimeo.com/228442493
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sleekmedia
Well-known member
The 2k out of the V-Raptor will be average at best, just the same as 2k was never favorable and was considered "average IQ" on Monstro and Helium which is why pro's use Phantom's when they need real HFR.
You can pump up the frame rates to 600fps/2K from 300fps/2K as a marketing pitch, which keep in mind Monstro, Gemini, Dragon, and Helium have been able to do for quite some time, by allowing faster processing but it doesn't change the physical size of the sensor and the size of the photo sites at a 2k resolution window (i.e. basically a S16 sensor cut). RED cameras have always windowed down to lower resolution because they shoot true internal RAW and downsampling 2k from 8k at full sensor height would not be true "RAW" acquisition as the pixels are essentially averaged. I personally would like RED to downsample in camera ,even if it was just a "PRORES" option because having full sensor coverage at a 2k HFR resolution would be amazing and would make shooting HFR a lot easier and would require a lot less light to get a clean image.
Keep in mind large 8k sensors have lots of smaller pixels to get 8k+ resolution. This is okay at full sensor coverage where you have lots of them working together. However, window a Monstro, Helium, or even V-Raptor sensor down to 2k and you are left with barely a S16 sized sensor with small pixels. You effectively are using 25% or less of the sensor real estate to shoot HFR, which again keep in mind requires a lot more light to get clean shadows than traditional 24/48/60fps due to increased shutter speed during HFR.
On Gemini when you window down to 2k from 5k, the sensor size that remains when windowed is larger than that of Monstro or even V-Raptor and has larger photo sites, due to the fact that the S35+ sized sensor (almost full frame height) has large pixels because it only caps out at 5k resolution across the large sensor size. This still leads me to believe that the 2k image quality out of Gemini will look better than the 2K out of Raptor. We used three Gemini's on several 300FPS/2K shots over Monstro just a few months back on an NBC job which required 300fps for this exact reason and Gemini actually was a clear winner in comparison while using Dual ISO to help with the higher shutter speed/shutter angle.
This is the same reason the 2k/120fps out of Komodo looks very soft and it is rarely used in the industry. I haven't shot with it once on my Komodo because the 2k just looks significantly different from the 4-6k produced from that camera. The sensor is just to small at that resolution and IMO this is the same case with all of RED cameras. If you want clean 2k/4k HFR its best to rent a Phantom. FreeFly wave tanked for the same reason as it gave the frame rates but with high compression artifacts and a lot of issues in post with things like moire and major artifacts.
To me personally HFR means nothing if the IQ is significantly below your non HFR frames / resolutions. It's like shooting HFR on an iPhone.
Now the 8K/120 fps RED RAW at full sensor coverage out of the V-Raptor is something to consider and is a significant advancement to the industry for aerial or nature cinematography, but outside of action sports, product commercials, or nature docs, how often are we really shooting greater than 300FPS HFR anyways?
600fps/2k would definitely be the wrong reason to buy V-Raptor
At that point, those who need it and can afford it should really rent a Phantom.
You can pump up the frame rates to 600fps/2K from 300fps/2K as a marketing pitch, which keep in mind Monstro, Gemini, Dragon, and Helium have been able to do for quite some time, by allowing faster processing but it doesn't change the physical size of the sensor and the size of the photo sites at a 2k resolution window (i.e. basically a S16 sensor cut). RED cameras have always windowed down to lower resolution because they shoot true internal RAW and downsampling 2k from 8k at full sensor height would not be true "RAW" acquisition as the pixels are essentially averaged. I personally would like RED to downsample in camera ,even if it was just a "PRORES" option because having full sensor coverage at a 2k HFR resolution would be amazing and would make shooting HFR a lot easier and would require a lot less light to get a clean image.
Keep in mind large 8k sensors have lots of smaller pixels to get 8k+ resolution. This is okay at full sensor coverage where you have lots of them working together. However, window a Monstro, Helium, or even V-Raptor sensor down to 2k and you are left with barely a S16 sized sensor with small pixels. You effectively are using 25% or less of the sensor real estate to shoot HFR, which again keep in mind requires a lot more light to get clean shadows than traditional 24/48/60fps due to increased shutter speed during HFR.
On Gemini when you window down to 2k from 5k, the sensor size that remains when windowed is larger than that of Monstro or even V-Raptor and has larger photo sites, due to the fact that the S35+ sized sensor (almost full frame height) has large pixels because it only caps out at 5k resolution across the large sensor size. This still leads me to believe that the 2k image quality out of Gemini will look better than the 2K out of Raptor. We used three Gemini's on several 300FPS/2K shots over Monstro just a few months back on an NBC job which required 300fps for this exact reason and Gemini actually was a clear winner in comparison while using Dual ISO to help with the higher shutter speed/shutter angle.
This is the same reason the 2k/120fps out of Komodo looks very soft and it is rarely used in the industry. I haven't shot with it once on my Komodo because the 2k just looks significantly different from the 4-6k produced from that camera. The sensor is just to small at that resolution and IMO this is the same case with all of RED cameras. If you want clean 2k/4k HFR its best to rent a Phantom. FreeFly wave tanked for the same reason as it gave the frame rates but with high compression artifacts and a lot of issues in post with things like moire and major artifacts.
To me personally HFR means nothing if the IQ is significantly below your non HFR frames / resolutions. It's like shooting HFR on an iPhone.
Now the 8K/120 fps RED RAW at full sensor coverage out of the V-Raptor is something to consider and is a significant advancement to the industry for aerial or nature cinematography, but outside of action sports, product commercials, or nature docs, how often are we really shooting greater than 300FPS HFR anyways?
600fps/2k would definitely be the wrong reason to buy V-Raptor
At that point, those who need it and can afford it should really rent a Phantom.
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ahalpert
Major Contributor
I really doubt that the camera/sensor is capable of full sensor readout at 600fps or anything much higher than 120fps
ahalpert
Major Contributor
I feel like RED's angle is half-assed all-in-one cameras, which is why you get conversations like this one about if you can get away with using your general purpose high res camera for food and beverage framerates. I feel like the actual market for true high speed cameras is pretty small. They'd have to make more expensive cameras and sell fewer of them, which they could do but doesnt seem like their business model?
maybe they could make a 4K S35 300fps camera for not that much money. But that would also deviate from their branding of higher res is better
NorBro
Major Contributor
A company like that could just do a vaporware cam.
I don't know anything about their operations but I bet some of the stuff is built-to-order (like Kinefinity).
They could tease it on REDuser and gauge the interest and maybe sell a few, and if it doesn't work just end it like with other stuff they've had (most notoriously their phone).
They discontinued the Raven and S-W after 2-3 years which was pretty aggressive.
I don't know anything about their operations but I bet some of the stuff is built-to-order (like Kinefinity).
They could tease it on REDuser and gauge the interest and maybe sell a few, and if it doesn't work just end it like with other stuff they've had (most notoriously their phone).
They discontinued the Raven and S-W after 2-3 years which was pretty aggressive.
jonpais
Well-known member
nah
NorBro
Major Contributor
Grumpy. Time for a nap again? lol
jonpais
Well-known member
not vaporware dude. the camera is the real deal. stop peddling nonsense.
NorBro
Major Contributor
Reread the posts. I was replying about Abe's hypothetical HFR camera, you broken toaster.
Obviously the new camera this thread is about is real.
jonpais
Well-known member
lame
ahalpert
Major Contributor
Yeah they make bespoke cameras for the Soderberghs of the world but... at the point where you're going to drop serious coin, you're in phantom territory?