New RED V-RAPTOR 8K VV 120FPS Camera

[Eric Coughlin]

Well I just sold my RV for $66k, which is almost enough to replace it with a Phantom Flex 4K which I see at $87k on Ebay.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/27134429968...UYAAOSwjkFf4gb V

Now there's a camera that's been out for years and hasn't lost its value.

Looks like we'll likely have to keep waiting for quality super slow motion at $20k or less. I imagine in 20 years from now most of the $10k cameras will have to ability to shoot 1000 fps at 4K, but we'll see. Frame rate tech has seen relatively slow increases over the past 20 years.

Still looks good eight years after posting.

https://vimeo.com/63490371

 

[NorBro]

Yeah, the Phantoms' IQ at those speeds always seemed like otherworldly scientific knowledge (via Vision Research).

I remember seeing this back in the day and I was lost with inspiration:

 

[ahalpert]

I know you don't mean it to be, but that statement is a bit misleading in several ways:

(1) Sony didn't have that 72fps FW update until last year, 3 years after the Monstro started shipping.

(2) ARRI's 90fps is only possible with ARRIRAW (IIRC), which isn't internal (camera maxes out at 60fps internally).

(3) As far as the crops, you're right about them - but that's how it's always worked starting at top with high resolution sensors. It's not a fair comparison to ARRI's 4K/90fps because the camera is designed differently. The HFR that low of resolution for the RED sensor will suffer.

But with that said, it's best to mention output dimensions (which are separate from windowing/cropping although they are related). And it's best to mention exactly what the comparison would be because the crop factors range from 1.1x+ to 1.5x+ (in the most important specs).

So while it's not worth comparing the Monstro's 4K high-speed offerings to ARRI's 4K, it can shoot a close 75fps @ 7K 2.4:1 with a 1.11x crop.

(4) And this one involves post-production and is not too worthy of a note, but you could take some of those higher-resolution funky ratios and clear most of a DCI 4K frame in post. (You seem like you've supported that in the past.)

But in general, yeah, newer cameras having better specs is going to happen, but the Monstro was shipping before both of the above were announced.

Sure but that was the state of play before raptor was announced.

I think you need to evaluate framerates at the uncropped aspect ratio you'll be shooting with. You're taking a hit to quality with any cropping. And cropping down from 8K to 2K is going to massively enlarge your noise, aside from the trouble it will give you with your lens FOV.

Like with the C300mk2 (not windowed, just lower res). Some clients were happy to shoot 24p on 4K and 60p in HD. Others rightly considered it to be a non-slow mo camera.

I dont know how often they use 120fps on scripted dramas, but it's easier to imagine it in use in commercials, music videos, docs... or for me, simply smoothing out handheld gimbal shots of a static subject when there isn't time to use a slider and I want to do 3D instead of 1D moves anyway

but for example, in star trek: generations which I rewatched recently, they use 2 slow motion shots in an early scene where people fall into water that were definitely more than 60fps. And then late in the movie when the ship crashes and people get thrown around inside. It's really nice for directors not to have to worry about adding a slow mo shot if they think of one

I'm not going to buy a raptor or probably work with one any time soon, so it's simply speculation about its place in a different market segment

 

[NorBro]

At the time of most of their cameras' releases, RED outspec'd everyone with features that were unavailable in most boxes.

If you can go back and reevaluate 2-3 years later then that may not be the case anymore for everything.

In general, I don't think crops are much of a big deal for most if they are manageable. A 6K higher FPS from a RED 8K sensor will look just as good as an a7SIII at 120fps and no one would notice the difference.

But of course when you drop to 2K from 8K it will look terrible, but that's also nonsensical.

If you need a high-quality 4K camera at 120fps, you don't consider a Monstro. In that case I wouldn't say they were outspec'd; they just didn't offer a comparable full-frame option because they can't offer everything.

 

[jonpais]

Less is a cheaper camera with a lower standard of manufacturing or reliability or simply brand reputation. Plus codec, etc

When brawley tested cameras for the Great, I think he compared the dxl2, the venice, and the Alexa LF. Something like that. So, in that context, would he have considered the raptor as well?

In the end, I think they went with Alexa classic plus his ursa g2 for handheld work. So, the client decided they didnt need true 4K capture after all...

i remember him saying he later shot an indy feature that was going to go Alexa but he convinced them to use the ursa so they could afford a 3-camera package instead of 1. (I can't remember if it was ursa g2 or 12k.) But they probably wouldn't use a C200 instead (although I suppose they could have). But a raptor? Sure, why not

Come to think of it, I’ve never seen a feature film or series shot with a BMD camera.

 

[Tom Roper]

Then you missed a really good one on Apple TV, The Morning Show.

Michael Grady is Focused on the Storytelling for The Morning Show | Panavision

 

[jonpais]

Then you missed a really good one on Apple TV, The Morning Show.

Michael Grady is Focused on the Storytelling for The Morning Show | Panavision

Only the “morning news show” portions were shot with Blackmagic Studio cameras on pedestals. Behind the scenes and everything else was acquired in large-format 8K with two to three DXL2s on Primo 70 prime lenses.

The official trailer for season 2 has like 1/2 second of footage of the television studio, presumably captured with the BMD.

The BMDs were chosen because they are the type of normal broadcast cameras that would ordinarily be used on a show like that: and apparently the camera operators were even unwitting extras in the show, so it would be bizarre to have them shooting with Panavision DXL2s on the set of the fictitious program. I've never seen the show, but I don't have Apple TV and it doesn't look like the kind of thing that would interest me anyway.

Michael Grady: "I fell in love with the DXL2 right away, loved the glass and loved the perspective of the large format".

Grady also had to maintain a balance between The Morning Show itself--the production realities of an a.m. news program, sometimes quite static and formal--and the filmic world where the characters reside. One world, for example, required the pedestal studio cameras of a morning show setup, capturing that on-air look. As for the overall Apple TV+ series itself, Grady gravitated to the Panavision DXL2 (8K) camera as well as the new Panavision Primo lenses. “I’m a Panavision guy in terms of customer service and at the time their DXL2 large format system was really brand new.” Apple, continued Grady, wanted “4K or above--now everybody’s caught up to this but at the time there weren’t a ton of choices.” Grady opted for the DXL2, an 8K large format [with RED Monstro sensor] which was “framed down to 4K for distribution.” He found the large format “amazing,” more akin to what still photographers have been doing “forever,” getting “depth of field” with the Primo lenses providing “a sense of an anamorphic image but in a spherical lens. Everyone was super happy with the results.” - shootonline.com

To claim that The Morning Show was shot with micro four third BMD cameras is wildly misleading.

 

[Tom Roper]

Blah blah, and your point is?

 

[jonpais]

Blah blah, and your point is?

What is your problem, man?

 

[Grug]

Looks like the only interesting thing here is 600 fps at 2K. I saw two conflicting answers in this topic whether that is windowed or not. I'd like to have a camera with good super high speed and a 4K Phantom Flex is out of my budget. I wonder how good the image quality is with 600 fps. I suppose the Freefly Wave high speed camera is still the better choice for a high speed camera at 40% the cost and twice the frame rate capabilities, though with both the Phantom and the Freefly no one seems to be using them for non high speed shots, while this is not a dedicated high speed camera. Not that I'd generally want to use a Red for an A-cam when I have Arris available.

The 2k crop will be about 10mm wide, that's not even S16mm-sized, that's classic Academy 16mm aperture. So I don't know how viable it's going to be to cut that in with more conventional resolutions from the camera - but fun to have. I'm keen to see how it looks.

 

[ahalpert]

The 2k crop will be about 10mm wide, that's not even S16mm-sized, that's classic Academy 16mm aperture. So I don't know how viable it's going to be to cut that in with more conventional resolutions from the camera - but fun to have. I'm keen to see how it looks.

All the severe crops on my red scarlet back in the day looked like ****. Or at least noticeably noisy even with a strong exposure at base ISO. Whereas I thought the full sensor image looked great

 

[ahalpert]

What is your problem, man?

Probably that you're unfairly trashing BM. Brawley used the ursa 12k throughout the morning show, I believe in the same manner that he used it on the great. For handheld improvisation. He showed me some frame grabs from both cameras (unlabeled) and, incidentally, the one I mentioned looked the best happened to come from the ursa. (Gorgeous golden skin tones)

There have been a lot of shorts, music videos, commercials, live concerts, and some features shot on BM

 

[ahalpert]

In general, I don't think crops are much of a big deal for most if they are manageable. A 6K higher FPS from a RED 8K sensor will look just as good as an a7SIII at 120fps and no one would notice the difference.
.

The issue is more mixing the uncropped with the cropped. You have to be mindful. the other issue is messing with your focal length and framing.

Nobody will argue that the ideal is anything other than equal spec and quality and sensor area in HFR as in normal speed

A 6K crop on red could easily be noisier than A7SIII 120fps at any rate

But one big issue here is the viewing size that illuminates differences and flaws. I evaluate most of my A7SIII footage on a laptop or a phone, which is where it's being viewed. When I look at it on a large 4K TV, the difference between low and high base ISO becomes much more apparent.

DPs comparing cameras for big shows look at it on large high-resolution projections. They want their material to stand up to high quality viewing. I can afford to maintain lower standards because the difference won't be as noticeable and, anyway, I'm not directly competing in my sector with anyone shooting at a higher standard of camera quality

 

[jonpais]

Probably that you're unfairly trashing BM. Brawley used the ursa 12k throughout the morning show, I believe in the same manner that he used it on the great. For handheld improvisation. He showed me some frame grabs from both cameras (unlabeled) and, incidentally, the one I mentioned looked the best happened to come from the ursa. (Gorgeous golden skin tones)

There have been a lot of shorts, music videos, commercials, live concerts, and some features shot on BM

You're talking nonsense, dude.

Season 2 of The Morning Show hasn't even begun streaming yet.

You and the other guy are gaslighting.

Then you missed a really good one on Apple TV, The Morning Show.

Michael Grady is Focused on the Storytelling for The Morning Show | Panavision

The other guy was talking about season 1 according to the link he shared.

Answer this, genius: how could someone miss something that hasn't even been released?

 

[ahalpert]

Then in that case YOU haven't seen BM shots on it yet, but I've seen some stills. And it'll be mixed in there like it was on the great. Go watch the great and see if you can tell which shots are BM and which are arri

 

[NorBro]

The issue is more mixing the uncropped with the cropped. You have to be mindful. the other issue is messing with your focal length and framing.

Nobody will argue that the ideal is anything other than equal spec and quality and sensor area in HFR as in normal speed

A 6K crop on red could easily be noisier than A7SIII 120fps at any rate

But one big issue here is the viewing size that illuminates differences and flaws. I evaluate most of my A7SIII footage on a laptop or a phone, which is where it's being viewed. When I look at it on a large 4K TV, the difference between low and high base ISO becomes much more apparent.

DPs comparing cameras for big shows look at it on large high-resolution projections. They want their material to stand up to high quality viewing. I can afford to maintain lower standards because the difference won't be as noticeable and, anyway, I'm not directly competing in my sector with anyone shooting at a higher standard of camera quality

I hear what you're saying - and I agree everything would be equal across an uncropped board in a perfect world (we just started to receive uncropped HFRs in consumer hardware) - but I just don't see it as much of an issue for most people who actually use these cameras.

Especially when most aren't constantly flipping back and forth between 24p and the higher-than-60p framerates you mentioned. Is is very rare and not practical for the people that use those kind of cameras. They have structured production days.

Also - just to be clear - crop factors with RED could also be dimension crops. Most of the crops punch in (like we're used to discussing) with lower resolutions and it's why you see so much noise, but only the dimensions change in some other modes.

So for instance - with the Monstro - the 8K/60fps is with its native sensor, but the 8K/75fps @ 2:4:1 is wider while losing some off the top and bottom. (Shown below, and the last frame is 2K with a 3.93x crop. lol)

Mixing has been discussed by REDusers since the day Jim Jannard sold Oakley, so people aren't necessarily new to it. I think to put things into perspective we have to recognize that this crop criticism for HFRs has only become a matter recently with newer full-frame options because before 2-3 years ago, you didn't have many cameras that could shoot full-frame or 4K/60p+. And if they could, they still might have had slight crops and/or were technically limited in some other form.

As far as noise, I see it dancing in Hollywood from time to time in every production, so I don't know if it matters to be overly neurotic about it if it can't even be totally eliminated there with millions of dollars.

 

[ahalpert]

Right but 2.4:1 crop is only useful if it's the aspect ratio you want. Which might be less common on high end since if they want an anamorphic look they'll use anamorphic lenses?

But if you were gonna crop to 2.4:1 anyway then theres zero harm in capturing it to begin with

Otherwise you're going to crop off the sides to get back to 17:9 or 16:9. If you End up cropping 7K from 8K it's probably not a big deal

Having noise in a movie isn't the end of the world but the DP will take it into account. I think they underexposed and pushed all of barry lyndon so the daylight exteriors would texturally match the nighttime interiors. That's common. At least within a scene or between sequential shots, you dont typically want an abrupt shift in noise character

I think the 2K 600fps will be a poor man's high speed shooting. I dunno. Probably much better off with the Wave and low-contrast lighting

 

[rob norton]

the other issue is messing with your focal length and framing.

I know some people that can't stand changing lenses on set when the frame rate changes and they'd think of it as a huge win as far as keeping things completely simple and eliminating the swaps.

It'd be cool if the file was somehow frame rate/shutter speed agnostic and you could dial in shutter speed/FPS in post.

 

[NorBro]

If you're mastering in 2K-4K, only the composition could get messed up over time, but indeed becomes problematic if we're talking about mastering in 8K.

I can't believe the Monstro still costs $60,000.

 

[jonpais]

I know some people that can't stand changing lenses on set when the frame rate changes and they'd think of it as a huge win as far as keeping things completely simple and eliminating the swaps.

It'd be cool if the file was somehow frame rate/shutter speed agnostic and you could dial in shutter speed/FPS in post.

This. Are you thinking of synthetic shutter?