New Canon Cinema Camera to sit between C300 and C100?

[jimagine]

Then you've literally never seen a doc on wild life. Or ancient battles. Or extreme weather. Or physics (one of the most famous shots in film history is the bullet through the apple shot with high speed footage). Or cooking. Or ballet. Or... well, you get the idea.

It's such a commonly used technique in virtually all forms of film making that it amazes me that a few people keep pretending that it isn't.

But it also amazes me that some people only know how to communicate with derision and condescension.

 

[jimagine]

I don't care what you buy. I only care that FUD isn't spread.

I was worried about the lack of 60p only, until I realized that I've used it for only two gigs since the T2i was released.

People's opinions aren't FUD.
What he said was valid and I've made the same points.
Your opinions have merit but you just can't seem to offer them, you have to deride others who have valid points that differ from yours.
It makes posting thoughts a less pleasant experience when there's someone that feels compelled to slam people publicly for stating them - and as the poster stated, it is a reputation you've earned.

 

[Guest]

my guess is the prime will be a cine 35mm L

if they release this mystery cam I'm also guessing it will be a C series dslr like the 1dc but cheaper

That would be welcome. The 35mm is pretty important in my lens setup.

Hope the new camera announcement urges more 60p development in cine-eos cameras. This is a weak point in the line, imho.

 

[Gary Huff]

It makes posting thoughts a less pleasant experience when there's someone that feels compelled to slam people publicly for stating them - and as the poster stated, it is a reputation you've earned.

I in no way slammed anyone outside of pointing out that you can't exactly make a sweeping statement about how perfect 50Mbps MPEG-2 is right after admitting you don't have experience with AVCHD...unless stating that I feel that the need for HFR is being overstated is also a slam.

 

[stefancolson]

I in no way slammed anyone outside of pointing out that you can't exactly make a sweeping statement about how perfect 50Mbps MPEG-2 is right after admitting you don't have experience with AVCHD

I probably shouldn't be responding anymore because we're not exactly furthering any discourse here by bickering, but in all fairness what I originally said was:

I don't have any first-hand experience with the particular AVCHD implementation in the C100, but I'll take the XF files out of the C300 (strictly from a codec standpoint) over anything I've seen in an AVCHD cam any day of the week."

I'm very familiar with AVCHD from a variety of cameras, but I don't have any experience with C100 files specifically. Not trying to further a pissing contest, but I'd rather be clear.

 

[Gary Huff]

That's fair, thanks for clarifying.

 

[EIREHotspur]

Well I just want to say to add to the bickering that I am dissapointed by lack of 720/50 or 720/60 in US Cameras.
I know a lot of people would not use Slo/Mo in their everyday jobs but it would be nice to have the option when needed.

Personally 720/50 is what I always shoot and having a 5D3 I would love to step up to A Canon 100/300 and build up my lenses.

By the way it is very refreshing to be on a forum where dissagreements can carry on unhindered and resolve themselves without bans etc.
Very Refreshing!

 

[vanvideo]

If Canon took the C300's EVF and added it to the C100, or maybe a new OLED VF, then called it the C200, that'd be a heck of an upgrade. I cannot imagine why Canon put such a dinky little EVF on a large sensor camera, where focusing is so much more critical. It doesn't even have an eye cup to block out extraneous light. I can understand Canon leaving off features to get the price down, but that was the wrong place to cut.

I love the ergonomics of the C300, and the C100 is even lighter and more compact, but that EVF has made me stay away.

 

[Guest]

the C100 is even lighter and more compact, but that EVF has made me stay away.

Yes, the EVF on the C100 totally negates the body design, as you have to add a view finder. So incredibly stupid.

 

[Sheldon Charron]

This is an old thread but I read it with interest, particularly the discussion about slow motion and the viewfinder. I have a long background in wildlife photography and was involved with a hunting show a ways back. I have been doing cinematography off and on for the last few years, but not for wildlife. I am looking to purchase a c100 or possibly a c300 mostly because of my DSLR background and long time Canon use.

I now plan to shoot some wildlife footage, and perhaps do some more hunting show production, and yes some features and TV, and I know that slow motion for wildlife is a BIG deal. The issue I can see though, is that the best shots I'll want to slow down, won't be ones I can plan for. If a critter comes running in, I have to be careful about movement or I will spook it. If a whale or shark jumps out of the water, it's over pretty damn fast. I can try to anticipate and shoot at a higher frame rate, but I won't be able to go back and forth easily. As far as I ca n tell, that means I either have to find a way to work with what I have to convert to slow motion after filming everything at 29.97 (or 24p or whatever), or shoot at a higher frame rate constantly and convert the footage back to 29.97 (or whatever). I would bet that's what Planet Earth, etc. do. They likely shoot at 1080/60p, 120 or 240 and then re-conform the footage outside of what they manage to capture that warrants slow motion. Anyone know for sure?

The apple/bullet scenario, you can set that up, but in many other cases like wildlife or action shots, there just isn't time. I'd love to hear thoughts on that, since it's what I'll be faced with regularly.

Also, I wonder about using the c100 in low mode. Anyone have issues with that. Seems that with the LCD not able to be positioned facing up, and no tilt on the evf, it would be very hard to shoot hand held in low mode, and even tough on say a slider or something. Am I wrong here?

I'd go with the c300 and take advantage of the financing, but I just moved to Los Angeles and unfortunately, have zero credit here. I have to pay cash and the c100 seems to be almost perfect and in my cash budget. I certainly wish it had even 720/60P, but I might be forced to try the c100 and convert to slow motion as best I can.

 

[indiawilds]

Hi Sheldon,
Nice to see someone here who is interested in wildlife. You can check this preview of my film on leopards here: http://youtu.be/n-Yc5VNUN-o The lack of higher frame rate is a challenge. One can anticipate when a bird is going to fly or when the wildlife is going to do some action. All you need is a button which needs to be configured for change of setting to higher frame rates. I hope that can be possible. No idea how it is done in C500 which has higher frame rate capability.

With the launch of Sony F5 and F55 some guys will cross over and sell the C300. So you can wait for that. You guys are lucky to get the lease scheme. We buy by paying all the cash upfront. All the best.

 

[Sheldon Charron]

Hey Sabyasachi! I actually did see your video. Pretty cool to see leopards that close to civilization. I've been to Namibia and did not see ONE leopard. Saw lions, but no leopards. I've spent days peeing into bottles trying to get photos of rare animals, like Jaguars in Panama, and am anxious to try that with video now. I'd love to come out there some time and get some of that footage. Maybe do a documentary. Fantastic.

As for the c300, I'm guessing you have to stop recording, then use a custom button to change it to 60p, then start up again? That would be pretty fast I suppose. Many times though, you don't see something until it's too late. For instance, in that situation, when the male was invading the territory of the dominant male, were you shooting in 60P. If the dominant male sprang out of the rocks and there was a quick fight, you would have missed the shot trying to change over, or have been stuck with 24p footage. I agree you can anticipate things, but sometimes you're surprised. You know the moments I speak of, when you say to yourself, "holy crap" and then you double check your footage to make sure you really did get what you just saw through the viewfinder.

The custom button sounds great, now all I need is 60P in the c100. And I'm in the same boat. I need to pay cash!! I need all new lenses too! I had $18,000 of gear stolen with no insurance, so I'm starting over. I have a Sacthler FSB 8, a matte box, shoulder rig, follow focus, monitor, lighting, etc. that have been gathering dust for a year because I needed to buy a new body, lenses and some of the other bits I lost and didn't want to until I was settled in one place. I'm finally ready to get some basic kit and am anxious to get out shooting again, but if I get a c300, I'll be strapped for lenses. I can figure I can always upgrade later.

I'd love to hear more about the tigers there. Stay in touch.

 

[atarijedi]

Hey Sabyasachi! I actually did see your video. Pretty cool to see leopards that close to civilization. I've been to Namibia and did not see ONE leopard. Saw lions, but no leopards. I've spent days peeing into bottles trying to get photos of rare animals, like Jaguars in Panama, and am anxious to try that with video now. I'd love to come out there some time and get some of that footage. Maybe do a documentary. Fantastic.

As for the c300, I'm guessing you have to stop recording, then use a custom button to change it to 60p, then start up again? That would be pretty fast I suppose. Many times though, you don't see something until it's too late. For instance, in that situation, when the male was invading the territory of the dominant male, were you shooting in 60P. If the dominant male sprang out of the rocks and there was a quick fight, you would have missed the shot trying to change over, or have been stuck with 24p footage. I agree you can anticipate things, but sometimes you're surprised. You know the moments I speak of, when you say to yourself, "holy crap" and then you double check your footage to make sure you really did get what you just saw through the viewfinder.

The custom button sounds great, now all I need is 60P in the c100. And I'm in the same boat. I need to pay cash!! I need all new lenses too! I had $18,000 of gear stolen with no insurance, so I'm starting over. I have a Sacthler FSB 8, a matte box, shoulder rig, follow focus, monitor, lighting, etc. that have been gathering dust for a year because I needed to buy a new body, lenses and some of the other bits I lost and didn't want to until I was settled in one place. I'm finally ready to get some basic kit and am anxious to get out shooting again, but if I get a c300, I'll be strapped for lenses. I can figure I can always upgrade later.

I'd love to hear more about the tigers there. Stay in touch.

I'm in a similar position. I really want to get into wildlife videography, and I have been mulling over the idea of getting an industrial camera, as you can change settings on the fly while recording, the changes happen on the next frame capture.

The company Lumenera has a USB3 based camera (Lt425), and it uses the CMOSIS CMV4000 image sensor (2k x 2k). I believe it can do 90fps at 12bit raw. $2900 and change for the camera. Not too shabby. But I think I would rather have a camera that uses the CMV12000 (4k x 3k) image sensor, so I am on the look out. Hard to find since it is so new to the market, and most companies would still be prototyping with it.

Anyways, the point is that industrial cameras give the latitude to do what you want. You could have the camera going to a laptop, and then have a remote in your hand. The remote could have a bunch of programmable buttons, press one to record in 2k@24fps, press another to switch to FullHD@120fps, and it happens live on the next frame whilst you are recording. You could even have it saved as independent clips every time you change settings.

With the larger CMV12000 sensor, you could have it capture using the full 4096x3072, but use pixel binning mode to get a 2048x1536 image, then press a button and it switches to a crop mode using on the centre 2048x1536 pixels, a sort of "digital zoom", and since it is a smaller area, the frame rate could also be increased.

Lots of options!

The major con to using a system like this is that you need to connect it to a computer, be it a laptop or something else. But it is also a pro, because you can do things with it that you can't with regular cameras, like motion detection, which could be quicker to hit record than a person.

 

[Sheldon Charron]

I don't know if I'd have room for the computer next to my pee bottle. Sounds interesting for stationary monitoring, but I can't see how being tethered to a computer would work well for shooting any kind of wildlife. I struggle to keep my gear dry and the dust out as it is. Plus I need some long lenses for what I would be doing. Interesting tech though.

 

[atarijedi]

I don't know if I'd have room for the computer next to my pee bottle. Sounds interesting for stationary monitoring, but I can't see how being tethered to a computer would work well for shooting any kind of wildlife. I struggle to keep my gear dry and the dust out as it is. Plus I need some long lenses for what I would be doing. Interesting tech though.

Lots of rugged laptops out there, and these industrial cameras are meant to be in dirty environments.

Plus, these sensors are almost always less than full frame, so your lenses wouldn't need to be as long. For instance, the Lt425 I mentioned uses a 1" sensor and has a crop factor of 2.7 at 2k*2k, so a 70mm-200mm becomes a 189mm-540mm, a 400mm becomes a 1080mm, 800mm would be 2160mm. If you change the region of interest on the sensor to FullHD, that 800mm would turn into something around 3200mm.

 

[Sheldon Charron]

But will it still give you IS? Seriously, as someone who is from Canada and hunted and photographerd wildlife in extreme cold as well as places like Africa, I can't see using a rig like this for wildlife. I have often brought my laptop along, but it's not something that would be with me in the field or in a blind. All that gear adds up. The idea is to stay lean equipment wise. No offense, but have you actually done much wildlife filming or photography? Even from a truck in Africa on a group tour, tethering to a computer would be very difficult, especially if trying to use the screen as a monitor. The type of filming I would do would be WAY more stealthy, and I would be trying to get as close as possible, be dressed in camoflage that would suit the environment, etc. I wouldn't be filming from a vehicle.

For instance, I've slept on pallet treestands so they were big enough to curl up on so I could catch the morning without having to disturb anything by coming in before dawn. One time I was in a stand at the edge of a dry swamp with a dugout full of water about 50 yards away. I was bowhunting and had my camera with me. I saw the long grass and rushes swaying about 200 yards away across the old swamp. I was hoping it was a buck, and followed the swaying as it lead right to dugout, but what popped out at the edge of it, was a doe and two fawns. One still had spots.

The sun was just starting to light up the swamp and fog was hanging across the water. The doe watched cautiously as the two fawns waded in and drank, then started to jump around and literally splash each other by dragging their legs at each other. They lunged at each other in the water and played for a good 45-60 seconds until the mother finally nudged one of them, bleated and they continued on, RIGHT underneath my treestand. I mean a foot away from the base of the tree. It was cool enough that morning that their eyelashes had frost on them and I could see their breath.

They continued on and eventually disappeared into the forest. That was one of the most beautiful moments of my life and I'll always treasure that. I never would have seen it if I wasn't out hunting, but I sure wish I could have had it on film. So now, I want to use those skills I have for getting close, to get some of those moments on film to share with others. It would be very difficult to work a camera and not get busted by the critters you're filming, but it can be done if you are very careful, and especially if they are not THAT close. In some cases a bit of distance makes things much easier. Even 20 yards makes a BIG difference if you're well camoflauged, or inside a blind, and scent control is a must as well. There are a lot of variables when doing this kind of thing. I used to even stop eating meat for at least 30 days before season so I didn't smell like a meat eater. Some friends used to laugh at me, but years later, after seeing my success, many started to copy that little trick.

Yes a full AF camera would be easier, but would not give the magical look I want. A system like you describe though, would not work for me at all. I'm not saying it's useless, as it might fit your application well, but it's useless for me.

 

[EIREHotspur]

If Canon took the C300's EVF and added it to the C100, or maybe a new OLED VF, then called it the C200, that'd be a heck of an upgrade. I cannot imagine why Canon put such a dinky little EVF on a large sensor camera, where focusing is so much more critical. It doesn't even have an eye cup to block out extraneous light. I can understand Canon leaving off features to get the price down, but that was the wrong place to cut.

I love the ergonomics of the C300, and the C100 is even lighter and more compact, but that EVF has made me stay away.

That is what has stopped me getting a C100 already too.
If they updated the EVF I would forego the 50P mode and get one (and a second one)

 

[dustylense]

The viewfinder really isn't that bad. What it is if you look at the XF line of cameras it's like the difference between the XF300 and the XF100. Ummm..300 and 100. Sure, the EVF on the C100 could be better but I'm not really having life or death problems with it.

 

[Bassman2003]

Does not make sense to me that Canon would "skimp" on the viewfinder of a $6,000 camera when another $6,000 camera (now $4,000) in their lineup (XF300) has a great viewfinder. Pros need the tools to stay in focus and the viewfinder is not an area to pinch some pennies imho.

 

[indiawilds]

Sorry I hadn't see the post.

C300 doesn't have slow motion at 1080p. So it is a bit tough. Hopefully Canon will have some brainwave and do a firmware update to include 50p at 1080. I don't need RAW. I just need the firmware to be updated and I can shoot with this camera for the next couple of years. I have requests for 3D content but not 4k content. At least not yet. So I am cool at 1080p. Canon Just give us the slow motion please.

I don't like peeing into the bottle, as in the darkness there are ample chances of mistaking the pee bottle for drinking water bottle.

Filming wildlife is not easy. Apart from equipment, one needs lot of ingenuity and field craft. Patience is another major requirement. So often one comes home without anything. The other day in biting cold I spent the night in the middle of the forest. Next day, I came back to the forest rest house without any thing to show. Some other day one can be really lucky. Lets hope Canon gives a midlife boost to the C300 during this NAB.

Hey Sabyasachi! I actually did see your video. Pretty cool to see leopards that close to civilization. I've been to Namibia and did not see ONE leopard. Saw lions, but no leopards. I've spent days peeing into bottles trying to get photos of rare animals, like Jaguars in Panama, and am anxious to try that with video now. I'd love to come out there some time and get some of that footage. Maybe do a documentary. Fantastic.

As for the c300, I'm guessing you have to stop recording, then use a custom button to change it to 60p, then start up again? That would be pretty fast I suppose. Many times though, you don't see something until it's too late. For instance, in that situation, when the male was invading the territory of the dominant male, were you shooting in 60P. If the dominant male sprang out of the rocks and there was a quick fight, you would have missed the shot trying to change over, or have been stuck with 24p footage. I agree you can anticipate things, but sometimes you're surprised. You know the moments I speak of, when you say to yourself, "holy crap" and then you double check your footage to make sure you really did get what you just saw through the viewfinder.

The custom button sounds great, now all I need is 60P in the c100. And I'm in the same boat. I need to pay cash!! I need all new lenses too! I had $18,000 of gear stolen with no insurance, so I'm starting over. I have a Sacthler FSB 8, a matte box, shoulder rig, follow focus, monitor, lighting, etc. that have been gathering dust for a year because I needed to buy a new body, lenses and some of the other bits I lost and didn't want to until I was settled in one place. I'm finally ready to get some basic kit and am anxious to get out shooting again, but if I get a c300, I'll be strapped for lenses. I can figure I can always upgrade later.

I'd love to hear more about the tigers there. Stay in touch.