Needed: voice recorder with very good preamps, upgrading from Zoom H4N, need advice

Nicholas Natteau said:
I'm trying to inform myself as wisely as I can, which is why I very much appreciate all this feedback as it really helps.
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You really can't go wrong with a Sound Devices mixer, but if you want to be absolutely 100 percent sure about this then rent a SD mixer before you buy one. ( I was amazed with the performance of the non-digital SD MixPre mixer I first bought 6 years ago, and since then I've upgraded to a SD MixPre-D mainly for the better meter display and convenience of the USB connection. In terms of sound quality the older MixPre model sounds pretty much the same )
 
Noiz2 said:
Actually if possible with the MixPre-D go digital to the recorder
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I think this also depends on the recorder you are using, as I found the digital recording to be 10 dB noisier than the analog recording when using a Roland R-44 recorder. I was surprised by the results, which I attribute to the digital circuitry in the R-44. ( i.e. noise-floor of the R-44 using the MixPre-D digital connection was -80 dB RMS, while the analog LINE level connection was -90 dB RMS )
 
FWIW, The R-44's line input mode does not bypass the on-board preamps.. which actually surprised me for something in that price range. It does however have a S/PDIF input so a SD MixPre D would would be a good companion. But then again, the R44's on-board preamps are 'allegedly' decent.
 
Rick R said:
It does however have a S/PDIF input so a SD MixPre D would would be a good companion. But then again, the R44's on-board preamps are 'allegedly' decent.
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I bought the R-44 digital cable from B&H specifically to test how going digital from the SD MixPre-D to the R-44 would sound, and I found digital to be 10 dB RMS noisier than using an analog XLR LINE level signal recorded at 48 kHz 24-bit. After finding these results, I would never use the digital feature of the R-44 recorder.
 
I find that astonishing. Mostly because I would think that any noise you got going in digitally would also be added to any analog input since all you should be doing is bypassing the analog inputs and A/D converter. Makes me wonder if the noise is coming from the SD, which I also would find surprising but I don't see how a digital input becomes noisier. If it is in the R-44 then there is some whacko design error.
 
Noiz2 said:
I find that astonishing. Mostly because I would think that any noise you got going in digitally would also be added to any analog input since all you should be doing is bypassing the analog inputs and A/D converter. Makes me wonder if the noise is coming from the SD, which I also would find surprising but I don't see how a digital input becomes noisier. If it is in the R-44 then there is some whacko design error.
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I was very underwhelmed by the R-44 digital performance, as I was expecting to see a noise floor close to the 110 dB dynamic range of the SD MixPre-D. Between the two, I trust the SD build quality far more than the R-44.

The R-44 also has a horrible user interface design and it forgets settings when powered off, so it's not my first pick when I have a say in the matter.
 
Something is dramatically wrong here. Either with the equipment or the test methodology.
The digital "noise floor" should be infinite. Digital zero is DEAD QUIET.
 
Richard Crowley said:
Something is dramatically wrong here. Either with the equipment or the test methodology. The digital "noise floor" should be infinite. Digital zero is DEAD QUIET.
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The R-44 immediately recognized the 48 kHz digital signal as soon as it was connected, and the only connection was the appropriate digital cable that B&H Photo sells as an R-44 accessory. The digital recording was clear and un-distorted, but did not sound any better than the LINE level analog recording.

As far as measuring the noise-floor, I used the same method I've been using for the past 6 years, where I record 10 seconds of the SD MixPre-D 1 kHz test tone which is calibrated to record at -12 dB, then I switch the test-tone off and continue recording for another 30 seconds. Once finished I bring the audio file into Sony Sound Forge 10, and see where the editor's meters sit on the RMS dB scale when playing back the recording. ( I prefer this method over using a FFT graph, as I find it corresponds better with what I hear with my own ears ) I consider the recorded RMS dB signal level when the mixer's test-tone is shut off to be the audio recorder's RMS noise-floor, but I listen for 30 seconds as some devices don't reach their noise-floor immediately. ( with most devices it's immediate, but occasionally there's a subtle fall-off that takes a few seconds to settle )
 
Yeah, thats a kooky result with the R44. I rigged a digital out from my 702t (or it might have been the 552) to the digital in on a Tascam Dr100mII and the result was a virtual clone, in fact it was the best quality recording I've ever achieved with any Tascam product.
 
Thank you again very much everybody.

After carefully reading and rereading everyone's input, I decided to go with the Sound Devices MixPre-D. I hope I'm making the right decision. Because after reading all the glowing reviews about the Sound Devices 702 here and elsewhere, it sounds like the nirvana of sound recorders, no pun intended, :)

Being based in Boston, I usually rent from Rule Broadcast, but I checked Rule's rental inventory online and they don't seem to have a 702 for rent.

So I'll be receiving my MixPre-D on Friday and hooking it up my Zoom H5, and hopefully I'll be good to go from there. I tried searching youtube for any side by side video reviews that might compare sound passing through MixPre-D vs into the 702, but didn't find any yet.

Again thank you all for sharing your knowledge and helping me out.
 
I'm a little late to the discussion, but I'll add my thoughts since I own both the mix-pre d and a usb-pre 2. The mix-pre d is definitely a better field mixer, but the usb-pre 2 has some features that make it worthwhile. First, the usb-pre 2 has multiple inputs which means that it can input RCA, Phono, or XLR without adapters which can be useful if you are using it at events. Second, the usb-pre runs off of a USB 5V which actually makes it cheaper to power than the hirose of the mix-pre D if that is not something you already own. Third, it has both SPID/F out which means that it can be fed directly to the Tascam DR100 mk2. The mix-pre d only has AES which doesn't seem to be as well supported. The biggest problem with the usb-pre 2 is that it is really hard to change settings due to the dip switch set-up when you need to change out mics or cables. I bought the usb-pre 2 to cover a gig when my mix-pre d had to be sent in for service. It is now mostly being used as a sound card for my computer and to record music. In that function, the usb-pre 2 is superb.
 
FYI, AES is basically just a higher voltage version of SPID/F. You can buy or make a cable that will knock down the AES to SPID/F levels to connect the two. That of course is a one way trip (you would need a booster to from SPID/F to AES).
 
Hello again everyone.

I have my Neumann TLM102 connected via XLR-1 input to my Sound Devices Mixpre-D. But I'm getting noticeable static noise, even though the Gain knob is turned only halfway up. The Mixpre-D's XLR-1 input is set to 48V. When I switch to 12V setting, I hear a lot less static. Is this normal? And if so, should I therefore be using 12V instead of 48V phantom power? This is confusing to me since the Neumann TLM102 is rated as a 48V phantom power mic.

I wish I could find a youtube tutorial explaining how to properly setup the Mixpre-D and the Limiter. I already read the Sound Devices user's guide, but I couldn't find anything on properly calibrating the Mixpre-D to ensure that there is no audio clipping.

If any of you know of any MixPre-D setup up tutorial on youtube, or vimeo, please let me know. I only found Mixpre-D reviews. I did come across a limiter setup tutorial but that was for the SD 302. I'm sure this would be helpful to anyone else starting out with the Mixpre-D as well.

Thanks again very much in advance.
 
You're recording on the Zoom H5, correct? Which recorder input are you using? Set to mic or line?

Typical calibration setup is to use the Mic-Pre's tone oscillator to set the input levels on the recorder. Connect the MixPre output to the recorder inputs at line level. Mixer's mic gain all the way down. Turn on tone to send a 0VU signal to the reorder. Adjust recorder's input level so its meter reads either -18dBFS (EBU norm) or -20dBFS (SMPTE standard). Tone off. With the talent speaking into the mic for a sound check, use the mixer's gain fader so the mixer's meter reads in the range of 0 to +4 VU. This gives you about 18dB of room before the recorder clips. To set the limiter threshold to other than factory default, hold down both the Input 1 and Input 2 butttons and turn the headphone control
 
The TLM102 requires 48V Phantom Power. Lesser voltage would exhibit a low or no output at all.
Is the static constant or intermittent. It could be attributed to a compromised cable. (which may work just fine with a non-powered mic)
I'm not familiar with the MixPre's limiter adj., but typically on other SD mixers, most set the limiter in the neighborhood of +16dB. If the recorder is referenced to -20dB, limiting would occur 4dB below full scale (clip) on the recorder.
 
Thank you Steve and thank you Rick. I'm not yet recording on the Zoom H5 as I'm waiting for an extra XLR cable to arrive. The static I heard was just when listening via headphones into the Mixpre-D. Rick, you may be right, it could be a compromised XLR cable. The one I'm using is over 10 years old and may not have been folded properly over the years. Just to be sure, I ordered two new XLR cables. They arrive on Wednesday, so I'll be able to do a full test then and upload an audio file so that you can hear what's going on.

The static is not permanent but intermittent. As soon as I switch to 48V on the Mixpre-D, there's a swoosh or gust (as in gust of wind) of static and then the static slowly fades but appears to crackle now and again. I heard the static when using both my TLM102 and my Sennheiser MK416, and when using both my Zoom H5 and my old Zoom H4N. So perhaps the culprit is the old XLR cable.
 
Nicholas Natteau said:
Thank you Steve and thank you Rick. I'm not yet recording on the Zoom H5 as I'm waiting for an extra XLR cable to arrive. The static I heard was just when listening via headphones into the Mixpre-D. Rick, you may be right, it could be a compromised XLR cable. The one I'm using is over 10 years old and may not have been folded properly over the years. Just to be sure, I ordered two new XLR cables. They arrive on Wednesday, so I'll be able to do a full test then and upload an audio file so that you can hear what's going on.

The static is not permanent but intermittent. As soon as I switch to 48V on the Mixpre-D, there's a swoosh or gust (as in gust of wind) of static and then the static slowly fades but appears to crackle now and again. I heard the static when using both my TLM102 and my Sennheiser MK416, and when using both my Zoom H5 and my old Zoom H4N. So perhaps the culprit is the old XLR cable.
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Yeah, sounds like the cable if you heard it on other devices. When you listen on the headphones with nothing plugged into the MixPre-D, you should be able to turn the gain and the fader all the way up and still not get "static", as what you're listening to are strictly the preamps.

Get back to us when the new cables come in. The combo of the MK416, the MixPre D, and your recorder (set at the right settings), should produce some very nice sound. I'm actually a little jealous of the 416, as I'm only rocking an NTG-2 currently.
 
Hello everyone,

Well after hooking everything up with my new XLR cable I'm pleased to report no more static. So yes the culprit was my old XLR cable. This must have been due to the way I was folding it over time. Thank you again everybody for all your help.
 
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