need to record a 10 min concert. Mono shotgun or other?

tarr

tarr

Active member
I need to shoot a video during a short concert in a chapel. Music sung by a choir will be used as diegetic background, while other stuff happens. Other stuff will be shot by two cameras, and I think I will use a third camera to shoot the whole cappella singing performance, so to have the entire track once in the editing room.

Should I use a shotgun mono mic, or some other device?

I do not anything about audio, so i ask for your help...
Thanks...
 
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For choirs I would use a stereo pair(s) of small diaphragm cardioid condenser mics. My favorite for choirs was the Neumann KM84. But there are many other small diaphragm condensers that will do the job, as well as the goose-neck type choir mics. A stereo pair of large diaphragm condenser mics (for instance he AKG C414) is an option too if you have them available, but may be too large on-camera. A single stereo mic may work also.
A shotgun, hyper-cardioid or handheld live performance type mics would not be a good choice IMO. But if single shotgun mic is all you have.. it's all you have.
 
Getting the mic in the right position is very important. A stereo mic, off the camera about 10' up in front facing the choir is best,
but if not, use a mono mic, off the camera in the best position you can get. Try and get in the chapel to set it up prior, but get permission first.

The sound saying goes .. the worst mic in the best position is better than the best mic in the worst position.

Cheers.
 
I'm trying to figure out just what you're doing here. Is the choir performing expressly in order for you to film them, so you could record multiple takes, etc, or is it a choir concert that you have been asked or have permission to film? The parameters you have to work with would be quite different if they are performing for your production versus you are filming at their concert. If they are performing for your video shoot and assuming the choir is on-camera behind the action you're filming, I would first prepare a separate high-quality stereo audio recording of their singing focusing on getting the best studio sound possible. For the video have them mime their singing as background action for the scenes you're shooting.
 
For this I would use a stereo pair of small diaphragm condensers - ideally slung, so they are up high and out of camera shot (or, if they come into shot are unobtrusive and almost invisible).

A pair of Gefell M300 are an excellent choice, or a pair of Sennheiser MKH8040 or the like. Both of these are dark coloured and unobtrusive.

You could also use a pair of omni microphones in a Jecklin or Schneider disk - this works well in this situation.

Don't go mono - having this in stereo will really enhance the video and give it a lot more depth.

I have seen far too many potentially excellent videos ruined because the sound was treated as less important than the pictures - sound is, at least, equally important as the pictures ad needs, at least, equal time and effort.
 
Nice mics John, but it does seem unlikely he'd have two grands worth of kit laying around, so there could be a mismatch of practical v ideal?
Do you like the sound of these head effect systems? I know the Jecklin disc is supposed to be good with loudspeakers, but I always think they sound a bit strange, not as peculiar as binaural with dummy heads, but not as realistic?
 
paulears said:
Nice mics John, but it does seem unlikely he'd have two grands worth of kit laying around, so there could be a mismatch of practical v ideal?
Do you like the sound of these head effect systems? I know the Jecklin disc is supposed to be good with loudspeakers, but I always think they sound a bit strange, not as peculiar as binaural with dummy heads, but not as realistic?
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Those mics are what I would use - you can go cheaper and get a pair of Røde NT-55 or NT-5 - or a pair of the Sontronics STC-1.

Though the Gefell M300 are only about £1,400 +VAT for the stereo set or £625 +VAT each (and the single units can be ordered as a matched pair at no extra cost - but then they don't come with the stereo bar and riser).

You can also hire if it's an important concert.

Regarding the Jecklin disk - I find that it works very well. I did some choir recording in Cambridge with John Rutter with this and I also did some recording in Steinway Hall for Lundahl & Seitl that was to be listened to on headphones and it worked perfectly.

I find using a Jecklin or Schneider disk for a choir is better than using spaced omnis (though I would more likely use an MS or ORTF pair with omni outriggers for this).
 
When I tried the Jecklin disk (sourced from Canford) we did some tests with a number of techniques that kept being claimed as being used in A Level Music Technology - back in the 90s, I was the Principal Examiner. People at that time had to record direct to stereo as one of the tasks, and very often people claimed certain techniques were used, but the sound didn't really support this in many cases. Sometimes the equipment lists provided also clashed - so a Decca Tree, with two C1000s and nothing else we could find. I wanted to see if I could tell by listening. So for my tests we set up in a large, but rather dead space, and lined people up from left to right. We got them to call out their names so we could see how well stereo image held up (being one of the marking areas) For each mic setup, we shuffled them around, making a note of who was where, so in the blind test we could see how it did. The most accurate imaging came from X/Y. Spaced omnis when placed half width left and right had trouble to the left and right of the mic placement - reading 1 to 10 left right, people wise, 3 and 4 and 7 and 8 were often swapped. The Jecklin disk had problems in the very centre with 5 and 6 often reversed. This wasn't remotely scientific, and quite subjective, because we set up the mics like the students did - random distances back and forth, varying heights - and X/Y seemed most immune to bad positioning. Some schools, with perhaps very keen staff, did the Decca Tree stuff quite badly, and it rarely generated decent marks. What was very evident was that a nice sounding room was the real key to decent recordings. I have no idea where it came from, but many people insisted on using rear microphones to 'capture the ambience', but so often these were their spare mics, SM58s frequently, and they would get the left and right swapped over wrecking the stereo image. I don't think I remember any recordings where rear mics got them extra marks at all.

All the clever techniques 'should' produce better results, if the person recording actually has good ears. On one occasion, we advertised in Sound on Sound for examiners and recruited some good studio people. Many did not fare well. At standardisation, we listened to recordings, and then using the mark scheme, people awarded marks based on tight criteria. All the teachers and education people listened (remembering what they'd heard in schools and colleges) and would say when asked their grade - A! then we'd get to the studio experienced people who would all look at their notes and see an E written. The best work they thought was rubbish, the worst they assumed was a joke! The usual reason was that they could not separate recording technique from the musicianship. Having a professional string quartet or a bunch of 14 year olds in a very, very weak orchestra should not alter the recoding marks - so a nice recording of a dreadful orchestra really is difficult.
 
Use anything but a shotgun! A stereo mic would be easiest for you, placed close to the stage in the center. The interference tube in shotguns make them terrible for recording music.
 
paulears said:
When I tried the Jecklin disk (sourced from Canford) we did some tests with a number of techniques that kept being claimed as being used in A Level Music Technology - back in the 90s, I was the Principal Examiner. People at that time had to record direct to stereo as one of the tasks, and very often people claimed certain techniques were used, but the sound didn't really support this in many cases. Sometimes the equipment lists provided also clashed - so a Decca Tree, with two C1000s and nothing else we could find. I wanted to see if I could tell by listening. So for my tests we set up in a large, but rather dead space, and lined people up from left to right. We got them to call out their names so we could see how well stereo image held up (being one of the marking areas) For each mic setup, we shuffled them around, making a note of who was where, so in the blind test we could see how it did. The most accurate imaging came from X/Y. Spaced omnis when placed half width left and right had trouble to the left and right of the mic placement - reading 1 to 10 left right, people wise, 3 and 4 and 7 and 8 were often swapped. The Jecklin disk had problems in the very centre with 5 and 6 often reversed. This wasn't remotely scientific, and quite subjective, because we set up the mics like the students did - random distances back and forth, varying heights - and X/Y seemed most immune to bad positioning. Some schools, with perhaps very keen staff, did the Decca Tree stuff quite badly, and it rarely generated decent marks. What was very evident was that a nice sounding room was the real key to decent recordings. I have no idea where it came from, but many people insisted on using rear microphones to 'capture the ambience', but so often these were their spare mics, SM58s frequently, and they would get the left and right swapped over wrecking the stereo image. I don't think I remember any recordings where rear mics got them extra marks at all.

All the clever techniques 'should' produce better results, if the person recording actually has good ears. On one occasion, we advertised in Sound on Sound for examiners and recruited some good studio people. Many did not fare well. At standardisation, we listened to recordings, and then using the mark scheme, people awarded marks based on tight criteria. All the teachers and education people listened (remembering what they'd heard in schools and colleges) and would say when asked their grade - A! then we'd get to the studio experienced people who would all look at their notes and see an E written. The best work they thought was rubbish, the worst they assumed was a joke! The usual reason was that they could not separate recording technique from the musicianship. Having a professional string quartet or a bunch of 14 year olds in a very, very weak orchestra should not alter the recoding marks - so a nice recording of a dreadful orchestra really is difficult.
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Very interesting Paul.

I got involved in this sort of thing a few years back when a friend who was running the Music Technology course asked me to go and give a talk to the students about microphone technique and bring along some of my microphones (valued at about £50,000 if I remember correctly).

I gave an illustrated talk about microphone types, polar patterns, room acoustics and the various different stereo techniques.

After this the students were to make their "Ambient" recording.

I let them choose any of the microphones they wished to use and the technique and positioning was their own choice and the recordings were made one at a time over a late afternoon / evening.

Very interesting and the students chose all sorts of different techniques from ORTF, MS, Jecklin Disk and one added ambient room mics (though these were £2,000 omnis if I remember correctly).

They had a choice from pairs of:- Sennheiser MKH 20, 30, 40, 800, 8040, Neumann KM 183-D, Jecklin Disk, Schneider Disk and a selection of dynamic mics.

Oh - and the previous year a couple of pupils from the school were accepted into the Tonmeisester couse at Surrey University.
 
Very sadly, after I moved to BTEC from A Level, the ambient recording that I supervised was abandoned in favour of multitrack. I think you were very lucky John - so many places looked at the minimum spec requirement which was a couple of condensers and a couple of dynamics. Very often odd sounding recordings would have, buried in the paperwork photos! X/Y pairs on stands, but with airborne cables because they were too short, that had tilted the mics up towards the ceiling, and nobody noticed. Worse still were the schools where the students were marched in one at a time and they all set up identical mics, and I'm fairly certain nobody even zeroed the desk. 20 recordings of the same awful string quartet - all with identical errors, and as I used to run a vectorscope while marking - loads were in mono!
 
paulears said:
Very sadly, after I moved to BTEC from A Level, the ambient recording that I supervised was abandoned in favour of multitrack. I think you were very lucky John - so many places looked at the minimum spec requirement which was a couple of condensers and a couple of dynamics. Very often odd sounding recordings would have, buried in the paperwork photos! X/Y pairs on stands, but with airborne cables because they were too short, that had tilted the mics up towards the ceiling, and nobody noticed. Worse still were the schools where the students were marched in one at a time and they all set up identical mics, and I'm fairly certain nobody even zeroed the desk. 20 recordings of the same awful string quartet - all with identical errors, and as I used to run a vectorscope while marking - loads were in mono!
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If I remember correctly, II think I also took my "The Box" along which is an LED vectorscope that gives a great visual image of stereo.

box2.gif box1.jpg


Though I am very sad that the ambient recording has been dropped as you learn so much about microphones and acoustics and get a good understanding of it by doing this that you don't get by doing multitrack (though you do really need to do both).
 
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