Need Some Advice on Editing and Mixing a Feature

[Nick Royer]

Hi All,

I'm in post on my first feature and need some advice on editing and mixing the audio. This is a micro-budget production, so I am having to do this myself without much prior experience in this field.


Sound Editing:

First off, I have reference audio for most (but not all) of the scenes in the film. However, I am using this basically as just a reference. I may pull some sounds from it, but this film has some unique challenges that basically mean that the reference audio isn't usable in the finished product.

This is an end-of-the-world picture, and the premise is that there is no oxygen - so while there is wind noise, there can't be any sounds of life in the background, such as birds, cars, people, etc.

I've recorded ADR with the actors for every line of the film. There may be some areas where we don't use it, but my method here is to sync up all the ADR, then build the scenes around that clean audio, recreating the background sounds and ambiance. Given the unique nature of this script, and that we didn't have the budget or crew size to record very good audio on-set, this seems like the best option.


So - I need some advice on how to build up those background sounds and manipulate the ADR with EQ's, etc, to give it a nice sound. The ADR recordings I have are very clean, so there is a lot of room to work with there. Also, how much foley is too much? Should I focus on recreating every natural sound, or just try to capture the dialogue, background, and key FX sounds.


Sound Mixing:

After I get the sound editing done, I need to do the mixing. This for me is the bigger challenge as it is something I've never worked with before. I'm working in Audition on an iMac.

What are the norms for 5.1 mixing for theatrical and for DVD/BluRay? My main concern is where to put the dialogue. Do you keep all dialogue on the center speaker only, or pan it? I know that both approaches have been done, but what is standard?

If dialogue stays on center speaker, you then use the other four speakers for background and FX, and keep those off the center speaker?

And how about the subwoofer, what goes on that?


I have done some reading on these things, but wanted to establish a way forward by figuring out what is the most common way to do the mix. I also need to figure out how to get my hardware hooked up. I'm wandering if I can somehow use TB>HDMI, then go to my audio receiver to drive the speakers. I do have an excellent speaker system to mix on, but I'll need to calibrate them to accurately mix.

Any suggestions/thoughts would be much appreciated. Thanks!

 

[davefisk]

When you record ADR, it should already be in sync.

I know you said this is micro budget, but honestly, this is a LOT of work, and it sounds like you might want to scrounge up some funds to get someone with even a little sound editorial experience to help you out. there. There is just so much to cover here I don't have the time to get into it all. I know there are probably some links to books in the stickies you can check out.

 

[Allan Black]

Also, how much foley is too much? Should I focus on recreating every natural sound, or just try to capture the dialogue, background, and key FX sounds.

Not to rain on your project but that says it all, you almost need to do an audio course at a film school. I suggest you look around your area for some pro help with this. Ideally it'd be someone who can come around on a semi regular basis, first of all to set you up, check your progress, and keep the project on track.

Doing this by yourself could take many months and get to the point where you call in help anyway, or just give up ... that's happened.

He/she could be a freelance pro between jobs, and you might need more than one. Be prepared to offer some payment. Good luck with it.

Cheers.

 

[Nick Royer]

Thanks for the replies so far. Let me clarify a few things.

First, the ADR is already in-sync, I'm just finishing up adjusting it here and there and choosing takes.

Second, I have more to start with than I probably made clear. I have done audio editing before on a 30-minute film I did, just looking to improve my skills a bit and get some advice. Also, I am not starting from scratch. I just don't want to use the nat sound for the dialogue. I do have background and effects sounds to use, so should be good there.

Really, my biggest concern that I need advice for is that I have never done a 5.1 mix before, only stereo mixes. So that is what I need the most help on.

P.S. I do have time on my hands and would like to do this myself, at least a 'rough' version that someone else can finish better than I can. Also, this is my own project, so I'm not reporting to anyone or accountable to anyone but myself.

 

[Nick Royer]

Not to rain on your project but that says it all, you almost need to do an audio course at a film school.

Allan, when I did the 30-minute short before I did do all of the foley sounds, including steps, clothing, breathing, etc. I'm trying to decide if that's necessary or not as I'm not sure it added that much in the end.

 

[davefisk]

Foley always adds a lot to a film if done right. It's one of those things you tend not to notice if you aren't a sound editor. I always appreciate good Foley. Foley is what really makes something sound natural when done correctly.

When it comes to a 5.1 mix you need a program like Pro Tools that can mix in surround. What software are you using?

 

[Nick Royer]

Foley always adds a lot to a film if done right. It's one of those things you tend not to notice if you aren't a sound editor. I always appreciate good Foley. Foley is what really makes something sound natural when done correctly.

When it comes to a 5.1 mix you need a program like Pro Tools that can mix in surround. What software are you using?

Dave,

I am using Audition CC, which does have 5.1 mixing capabilities. I'm just trying to figure out the conventions of mixing 5.1 versus stereo, particularly whether the dialogue should stay on center channel only or pan.

I went back and listened to that earlier film and I agree that the foley is definitely worth it.

 

[davefisk]

Dialogue is almost alway in the center, but the new film "Gravity" used dialogue panning heavily, so I guess you could say that if the scene calls for a dialogue pan then go for it. Everything else should be panned wherever it is supposed to be. I tend to put BG's mostly in the front and a little in the surrounds. I like using the surrounds sparingly, but that's just my personal taste. Everyone is different. I'm one of the few audio nerds that doesn't get off on the whole "surround sound experience". I've yet to see a film that made me really glad that it was in surround. I guess it was kind of cool the first time I saw the lobby shoot out scene from The Matrix in surround, but the novelty wore off for me pretty quickly. I guess if I had to say one movie that surround worked for me was Saving Private Ryan, especially the invasion at the beginning.

 

[Allan Black]

I'm just trying to figure out the conventions of mixing 5.1 versus stereo, particularly whether the dialogue should stay on center channel only or pan.

Nick,

If there's any concerns that a 5:1 mix won't always be presented in a properly set up 5:1 theatre .. then finish it in stereo.

Cheers.

 

[Rick R]

I agree with Nick, you can never foresee how screwed-up a theater audio system might be, especially in film festivals. And if it's not done right, the down-mix could be a total disaster. I recommend mixing stereo if your w/o a lot of 5:1 mix experience. Even in stereo, mono compatibility should be verified with a scope.

 

[Allan Black]

For Ford and IBM we did full on 4:1 surround sound 30 screen audio visuals presenting their new products to their sales forces, flying all the gear around the country for 3 months in a Bristol freighter.

You learn a lot doing shows like that and one thing was, the narration always needed to be front and centre, because all the theatres and halls had different acoustics and audiences at the outer edges of the seating were likely to miss the message. But they were always compensated by the pretty female dancers

Cheers.

 

[Noiz2]

OK first off as Dave tried to drive home more subtly it's Foley not foley - it's always capitalized.

Second yes you need to keep the dialog centered. If you read the countless posts like this you will see that centered, always centered. There are a number of reasons and I laid a few of them out in another thread a few days ago. If you curious you can search, if not dialog = center.

I would recommend the stickies on post. There is one I'm partial to (I started it) called how to make your film sound like it had a budget.

It's not grabbing a sound here or there it's about creating the world your story takes place in. 5.1 should be the last thing on your list. Not that you can't go there but you need to do so much more before you are ready to mix in 5.1, you need to create the world.

From your description you have a LOT of work to do because you can't really use a lot of real ambiences so you are going to have to design a lot.

If your ADR is in sync, it doesn't need "adjusting". If it needs adjusting it's only roughed in so you have a lot of work just to get it into real sync. Sync is like being pregnant, you either are or your not.

I would recommend you get someone to at least mentor you a bit. This is not to say you are not any good or anything but I worked in sound for maybe twenty years before I started working as an assistant on big films and I learned more (about film sound) in two years being a minion than I did in the twenty years before. There are SO MANY little things and you can't get them from asking because you won't ask the right questions.

You can probably get some folks from this list to help. Let them look at it and give you suggestions? I get it you have no money but you can get some folks to toss out ideas about concept / design things and it could be a huge help. I would still opt for a local with experience but that may not be possible. I moved from the SF Bay Area to Detroit and there are very few folks with any feature film sound experience around here.

And it is feature film folks you want to talk to. Music, video, etc. are not the same thing and will be of very mixed help. Some might be OK but it's really a different world. Video you would think is close but generally they are not doing the kind of deep sound work that features generally do, the don't have the time.

None of them do the breakdown build up that is bread and water for film sound. Identify the "sound" break it down into the important parts, find/ record the parts and build the sound back up.

Dave,

I am using Audition CC, which does have 5.1 mixing capabilities. I'm just trying to figure out the conventions of mixing 5.1 versus stereo, particularly whether the dialogue should stay on center channel only or pan.

I went back and listened to that earlier film and I agree that the foley is definitely worth it.

 

[Noiz2]

I'm another another that doesn't get very wrapped up in 5.1 Especially on a low budget film. Working on big budget films you get to see a lot of films in screenings, and they sound great, then you go to a real theatre and it sounds like crap. The surounds are out of alignment or not on, I saw a 5.1 film I worked on in Mono! - but it was advertised as Dolby Digital 5.1. Home systems are even worse so to me it's asking for your track to be trashed to mix a low budget in surround. Plus there still isn't ( as far as I know) a standard high def format you can sent to festivals in 5.1 that doesn't cost a fortune. Maybe there is one now and that would change the balance a bit.

MOST features are mixed basically in LCR with some sub and have the odd bit splashed into the surounds. They used to mix in 4.0 and then do another pass for the surround splash, but more films are actually mixed in 5.1 thoughtfully now. And a few are stand outs. Saving Private Ryan was such a fantastic sound film... I saw that in the perfect location and have managed to avoid seeing it elsewhere. It's one film that if you have to pay extra to find it on a really tuned and working sound system it's worth it. You want a good sub for the end...

Haven't seen Gravity, but if they are panning dialog be careful to sit center. It's hard to argue basics when there are plenty of really horrible sound films that can get tossed out as "they did it". Watch Public Enemies and learn how NOT to cut and mix dialog, or the 300 and learn how to ignore the meeters and try to make your entire audience deaf. If that doesn't kill your ears you can go to the second Matrix film to finish your ears off. You can see "In the Bedroom" and learn how to take a big budget film and make it sound like a no budget film. I will blame most of the above on the directors since I know some back story on a number and it wasn't the editors choice you heard. But they are still classic examples. A good "lets save on Foley" is Nina Takes a Lover. There are a number of resturant scenes where there is miraculous eating where silverware and dishes make no sound.

But I digress...

Dialogue is almost alway in the center, but the new film "Gravity" used dialogue panning heavily, so I guess you could say that if the scene calls for a dialogue pan then go for it. Everything else should be panned wherever it is supposed to be. I tend to put BG's mostly in the front and a little in the surrounds. I like using the surrounds sparingly, but that's just my personal taste. Everyone is different. I'm one of the few audio nerds that doesn't get off on the whole "surround sound experience". I've yet to see a film that made me really glad that it was in surround. I guess it was kind of cool the first time I saw the lobby shoot out scene from The Matrix in surround, but the novelty wore off for me pretty quickly. I guess if I had to say one movie that surround worked for me was Saving Private Ryan, especially the invasion at the beginning.

 

[Allan Black]

I agree, but still on surround sound. When we started our surround shows, the University of New South Wales contacted us because they were doing research into recorded surround sound and the effects on the audience.

Later we found out Panasonic Japan has commissioned them to do this, and one thing I remember that stood out ..

If you have related voice tracks in the side and/or rear speakers, then the natural human instinct of the audience is to turn around to face the voices.

They'll resist doing this, but it can certainly distract from the show, and surveys from ppl who attended our early shows confirmed that this was the case.

Cheers.

 

[Nick Royer]

I was under the impression that it was required to have a 5.1 mix for some distribution platforms, such as iTunes. If that's not the case, I'd much prefer to not do a 5.1 mix as I am much more comfortable with stereo or LCR.

If I don't end up doing a 5.1, should I do two mixes:

LCR for theater/film festivals.

Stereo (2.1) for home viewing.

Not being involved much in audio, I just want to make sure that I don't shoot myself in the foot by doing things in a non-standard way that will require a lot of fixing later on.

 

[Allan Black]

Fom what you've told us, just finish this project in stereo, you'll have enough on your hands.

After you hear it on different speaker systems and let friends see it, imo you'll be back remixing parts of it, hopefully just a few.

And for your friends preview, write a short list of survey questions for them to answer immediately after their viewing, but not anyone in the cast or production, they'll be too biased. For your friends, provide coffee and cakes get them talking about your movie.

And keep everything, all the audio stems and your production notes and later, you could run a 5:1 version.

Cheers.

 

[Noiz2]

I would be VERY surprised if anyone required 5.1. That would leave out a lot of films.

The way to not "shoot yourself in the foot" is to keep the sound session. Trying to turn a mixed stereo track into 5.1 is really kind of a joke, but if you have the sound edit session with all the tracks then it's a bit of a reedit/mix but you can actually do it.

Films are edited in stereo and mixed to create 5.1, so your stereo session is most of what you would need to do a 5.1. As long as you keep the original session/ project then you can retool it.

If you are doing your sound in a NLE (as opposed to a DAW) then I would probably export to an OMF when your done and generate an EDL while you are at it. That will let you move it to a DAW and allow you to track later picture changes. Keep the original also but the OMF is what sound post will want.

 

[Rick R]

Many NLEs support AAF as well, which like OMF contains the EDL / timeline and can embed the media files. AAF is primarily for video exchanges, but supports most of the audio parameters of OMF. OMF is still the preferred audio exchange format for most 'audio' folks. FCP-7 and earlier versions supported OMF export. FCP-X does not support either w/o a third party utility.

 

[Allan Black]

Another thing to watch out for when you're new at audio post mixing, is ear fatigue. To avoid that, make your sessions just long enough and stop before you get tired; the first thing you'll notice is, you start inching the speaker volume up. This happens a lot with rock music mixing where louder is perceived to be better.

So, before you start, after you establish your speaker mixing level, put a mark on the volume control and don't move it. For each post session, get some coffee and play the project from the start up to where it's currently at, to get in the groove. Make sessions just long enough to suit you and take 5-10 min breaks every hour.

Nick, it's a good thing you've got no deadline pressure, stress will definately screw things up and, if you're working a day job, arrange to take some days off and treat the s/track as a Lock Out ie: let no one in.

And triple check everything is laid properly on your NLE or DAW before you start mixing, stopping to fix things is the pits. After each session, you should be able to just turn the rig off and leave it, or maybe just leave everything on, back in the day we did that. You shouldn't be involved with another project.

Drink fluids, exercise, eat well, stay off the sauce and keep your girlfriend out of the mix It all helps the movie.

Cheers.