Need Shotgun Mic recommendations, please

[Shiloh Arts]

Hi best and brightes in the industry!

I’m currently working on directing streaming videos for the web. The application will be somewhat studio based, at times however, will need to go on location to shoot. I’m using an HVX200 and have a Sennheiser wireless microphone (Evo).

I know that there are many shotgun microphones to choose from like Sanken, Neumann RSM 191, and the Sennheiser MKH-416. Just would like to get some of your professional feedback on what you think of these mics, and if financial limitations aside what may be even better solutions for commercial and film application.

On final thing,
I'm trying to find some sound proofing equipment. Would you have any suggestions on packages that work pretty well for an overall large room setting?

:dankk2: Thank you all in advance.

 

[Jeremy Ordan]

Hi best and brightes in the industry! .

hi

I’m currently working on directing streaming videos for the web. .

congrats

The application will be somewhat studio based, at times however, will need to go on location to shoot. I’m using an HVX200 and have a Sennheiser wireless microphone (Evo). .

ok

I know that there are many shotgun microphones to choose from like Sanken, Neumann RSM 191, and the Sennheiser MKH-416..

doesn't even scratch the surface

Just would like to get some of your professional feedback on what you think of these mics, and if financial limitations aside what may be even better solutions for commercial and film application. .

depends. removing financial limitations helps and puts them on a similar plane. ultimately, in my opinion, the 416 is the industry standard shotgun microphone for professional application so when you are comparing the three of these units the differences you are seeing/hearing are more minute than the differences. It comes to personal opinion. I like the 416, always have and always will, but as others can attest, I have a nasty love / hate affair going on with Sennheiser.

On final thing,
I'm trying to find some sound proofing equipment. Would you have any suggestions on packages that work pretty well for an overall large room setting?.

I assume this is for studio. You can start cheap with moving sound blankets. You can go not so cheap with some homemade foam, big packaging foam. You can go more expensive and go to www.sweetwater.com and get some studio foam. You can go more expensive and get a mobile recording room made of maple or oak. You can go more expensive and build a studio. Somewhere in the middle you can rent out studios for about $100/hr to $500/day.

There is also the ghetto technique of recording in a car with the windows rolled up, and that gives great results.

:dankk2: Thank you all in advance.

You're welcome!

 

[Oleg 2]

my thought are already in the archive - search button is your best friend

 

[Shiloh Arts]

hi


congrats


There is also the ghetto technique of recording in a car with the windows rolled up, and that gives great results.

Funny Stuff!:laugh:

This leads to the next ? ...you would you use the 48v phantom on the HVX or get a separate DAT? My thought was that DAT's are becoming dated.

Everything we're doing is in house, so building from scratch would be the idea. I think that we can try to get packages to dense up the room a bid. We're using the refecmedia lite ring and backdrop, but even with this stuff inside there still is lots of room reverb.

Thanks for detailed reply's.

 

[Shiloh Arts]

my thought are already in the archive - search button is your best friend

mmm... search button...o ya!! Found tones...no offense but would prefer a more current update from professionals, not a archived one.

 

[Jeremy Ordan]

Audio doesn't change so the archives aren't outdated. They aren't going to invent a new pattern that is going to make us all say "Damnit, I was doing it wrong this whole time"

Regarding your question, 48v is fine whether it comes from you mixer (prefered method) or your camera.

 

[Oleg 2]

mmm... search button...o ya!! Found tones...no offense but would prefer a more current update from professionals, not a archived one.

hmm professionals - are these who got paid for their job ?
updated responses - except the new schoeps shot gun all others are about your age - so nothing really update - use the archive .
about the 200 and the mic ., if you intend recording only one mic to the camera each time , buy good preamp or small mixer ( tones posts about these ones) . no really nee in separate recoding.
for better acoustic reflection , you can use cheap flor , make large wood frames 2 inch wide on the walls , stuck the stuff you pit between the gypsum walls( dont really know what is the name in English)behind the carpet .
For celling you can use eggs cartons -
cheap but working -

 

[Shiloh Arts]

hmm professionals - are these who got paid for their job ?
updated responses - except the new schoeps shot gun all others are about your age - so nothing really update - use the archive .

about the 200 and the mic ., if you intend recording only one mic to the camera each time , buy good preamp or small mixer ( tones posts about these ones) . -

Thank you! I'll take that as a complement. I believe that the 416 is pretty new, it suppose to replace the 18, but most people prefer to still use the 18 over the 16s. I will continue to check the archive, but I think that I'm leaning toward the new generation 416.

Regarding the sound proofing, what do you think about B&H's packages http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=WishList.jsp&A=details&Q=&sku=401559&is=REG

Well, when I mean professional...I mean people who either know the stuff by hobby, or do get paid. I prefer paid pro though cause they already know what works best (ie have a model in mind and not a slew of them).

 

[Oleg 2]

the 416 is about 30 years old - new ? - new to you
the 418 is ms microphone - it doesnt sound the same -.

you get professional response from some one who get paid almost every time
- make a search and if you dont find your answers then maybe we will continue - as i said everithing in the archives .

by the way, what works for me - sometimes not relevant to this board residents and the Wise verse .
mics test is quit individual issue and more depends on what you like and the wax in your ears . of course you budget is plaing some roll in that.
.
i had or have every mic you did mention and my taste changed with the time .
all them good - but if you work in reflected space - you dont need shotgun - so do you a favor and take a long walk in the archive .it might save your money and bring you better sound .

 

[Shiloh Arts]

the 416 is about 30 years old - new ? - new to you
the 418 is ms microphone - it doesnt sound the same -.
.

Look at that stand correct yet again...thank you.

Must have mismatched the models...see that's why I asked

I'm not much of a sound enthusiast, although I do admire those who are. I just have limited time to research all the various models. I would prefer to find a concrete site with sound samples of all models we talked about. I did find a few out on the web, but most include me66 (really dislike) and a week example of the 416.

But I will take your wise old consul and check the archives. Thanks

By the way, have to update the picture.

 

[Steve Shovlar]

Shiloh Arts, I came in here a year ago as a complete and utter newbie. And still am. But I come into this section more or less every day and read. And read.

And it's suprising what knowledge can be picked up in here in a relatively short time span. I am not talking about experience. I am not a pro and use the info in here from Oleg (who has been very helpful to me although some find him a bit sharp! ) and many others.

The first question I asked was about the Sennheiser ME66, which I had purchased through recommendations. A bad buy and it soon went on Ebay. I read and learnt what others use ( pro sound guys) and tried to emulate their kit. Of course it doesn't come cheap, but a bit of shrewd buying and selling of 416's (buy cheap on ebay, take nice pics and sell at a profit back on Ebay!) got me to a Sennheiser MKH60, which I prefer over the 416. There are probably better shotguns out there like the Schoeps CMIT 5 ( pricey but recommended by many)

Cheers
Steve

 

[Shiloh Arts]

Shiloh Arts, I came in here a year ago as a complete and utter newbie. And still am. But I come into this section more or less every day and read. And read.

And it's suprising what knowledge can be picked up in here in a relatively short time span. I am not talking about experience.

Hey! That's about the same time I came.

I've been researching pretty much whole nine yaaaads (a little Bostoina 4 ya) from type of camera, film techniques, to chroma keying, to editing etc. Now I'm finding that I'm in the need to research lens, and mics a bit more.

The first question I asked was about the Sennheiser ME66, which I had purchased through recommendations. A bad buy and it soon went on Ebay.

I couldn't agree with you more. I used the ME66 for a doc and found it to be a bit too bassy for my taste and not alot of depth.

Sennheiser MKH60, which I prefer over the 416. There are probably better shotguns out there like the Schoeps CMIT 5 ( pricey but recommended by many)

Cheers
Steve

I actually heard the MKH60 and I'll tell you Steve, there're pretty impressive! Will have to check the Schoeps CMIT though.

...Oleg (who has been very helpful to me although some find him a bit sharp! ) ...

Nah... I know he's just being a ball basta. No harm

I will say, it's more a reflection of character. You know what they say...the older or mature you get, the more character you build. :beer: Cheers

 

[Joe_Kras]

Always remember to read Oleg's replies very carefully. If you don't, you just might miss some gems like this:

but if you work in reflected space - you dont need shotgun - so do you a favor and take a long walk in the archive .it might save your money and bring you better sound .

What Oleg said was very important. In a reflective indoor space, you don't want a shotgun as your go to mic. You want a hypercardioid. Which can be anything from an Octava to a Schoeps.

And you're doing the most important thing, which is treating the space. The next most important thing (IMO) is the boom op's technique. After that comes your equipment (mixer and mic), with using a separate recorder as the last thing to consider.

 

[Shiloh Arts]

Always remember to read Oleg's replies very carefully. If you don't, you just might miss some gems like this:

Like I understood what he was talking about :laugh:

In a reflective indoor space, you don't want a shotgun as your go to mic. You want a hypercardioid. Which can be anything from an Octava to a Schoeps.

Ok now I'm confused cause last I checked http://mediagods.com/glossary/What_is_hypercardioid.html a Hypercardioid was a shotgun mic. I already have a voice over microphone (Neuman). I guess I should just get a better lavalier then the sennheiser Evo g2 one I'm currently using.

Did you mean...use a shotgun mic that uses a hypercardioid design like the Octava or Schoeps?

And you're doing the most important thing, which is treating the space. The next most important thing (IMO) is the boom op's technique.

:huh: Huh? Remember guys...your not talking to a sound man here. Now I do know music production, but that's an entire segment unto itself.

 

[Jeremy Ordan]

It refers to pick up patterns.

Read the stickies at the top.

Shotguns are good for exterior locations
Hypercardiod interior locations

If you are working in a place with reflection then you are not going to want to use a shotgun

Read the stickies. They are stuck for a reason...

 

[Joe_Kras]

OK, here goes, one more time.

1) Go here : http://www.livesystems.co.uk/mic-selection.html

to look at illustration of microphone pickup patterns. From widest to narrowest patterns- omni, cardioid, hypercardioid, shotgun (which is also sometimes referred to as supercardioid). There are also figure of eight patterns, but these are generally not used much in audio for video. For that matter, usually when speaking of audio for video, you're usually talking using either a hypercardioid or a shotgun mic. Stereo mics are only rarely used.

2) Treating the room is referring to the "soundproofing" that you referred to in your original post. Treating the room is just a little more correct, in that you're not really getting rid of the original sound, but reducing unwanted echoes in the room and sources of ambient room noise (HVAC, refrigerators, computers, etc.). That's what using moving blankets, egg containers, building flats with insulation behind them, etc. is for.

3) Boom op technique. The $165 Octava microphone mounted on a painter's pole 2 feet from the actor's mouth will totally blow away a $1500 Schoeps mounted 5 feet away on the camera. I am not an expert, either, but minimizing distance to the source and using angles that minimize ambient noise and reflective surfaces when booming are two things that will help your sound a LOT.

4) Choosing mics and mixers is next. Don't blow all your money on a great mic, without taking care of number 2 and 3 above.

5) Once you've done all the above, you will know when it's time to go dual system sound, and record your audio to a separate recorder. For web based stuff, you will probably get plenty good audio recording to the camera.

Finally, two other recommendations. First, I heartily second Jeremy's suggestion of reading thru all of the stickies. There are tons of good recommendations in there. This section has been around long enough that most everything you need to know has already been asked a lot (and answered).

Secondly, I will add another recommendation that is often made here. Hire someone to do sound. Even if you don't have enough money to hire someone everytime you do something, find a good local sound man, explain your situation, then hire them for a one hour consultation to evaluate your room and recommend sound treatments in your budget, and hire them for one or two recording sessions where you can see what they use and how they use it. It will be money well spent. As long as you're upfront with them about what you want (to become self sufficient to do adequate audio for your videos) they shouldn't mind you watching and learning from them.

 

[Shiloh Arts]

OK, here goes, one more time.
1) Go here : http://www.livesystems.co.uk/mic-selection.html
to look at illustration of microphone pickup patterns. From widest to narrowest patterns- omni, cardioid, hypercardioid, shotgun (which is also sometimes referred to as supercardioid) ....

Thank you :dankk2:

2) Treating the room is referring to the "soundproofing" that you referred to in your original post. ....

Yes, this much I know from music production.

3) Boom op technique. The $165 Octava microphone mounted on a painter's pole 2 feet from the actor's mouth will totally blow away a $1500 Schoeps mounted 5 feet away on the ...

Now this is very good info for me...I like the way you put this in lame terms.

4) Choosing mics and mixers is next. Don't blow all your money on a great mic, without taking care of number 2 and 3 above...

Will do

5) Once you've done all the above, you will know when it's time to go dual system sound, and record your audio to a separate recorder. For web based stuff, you will probably get plenty good audio recording to the camera...

This is true, the HVX200 phantom power is good enough, now I also have protools Mbox2 running to clean the audio if needed.

Finally, two other recommendations. First, I heartily second Jeremy's suggestion of reading thru all of the stickies. There are tons of good recommendations in there. This section has been around long enough that most everything you need to know has already been asked a lot (and answered).

While I agree with you completely, I will also say that sometimes the questions to your answer regarding newer techniques may not always be in past references. Since I'm dealing with streaming video, I need to treat the audio recording less like a film production and more like a studio base recording. Also remember that because of the audio quaility will be most likely the first thing to suffer during compression of video, I need to address a reasonable solution to this specific application.

Secondly, I will add another recommendation that is often made here. Hire someone to do sound...

This may be the best approuch for me for now, I can't risk trial by error. Thanks for taking your time Joe!

 

[MattinSTL]

Hey Joe... I told you about the other day shooting in Children's across the street from you. We were on the ground floor in one of the rooms... they're really small rooms over there (I guess for kids?) These were the rooms right off the ER... anyway... all hard surfaces... nothing more then the small hospital bed in the middle of the room to soak up some of the reflections... everything else hard and reflective. I popped the AKG hyper on a 3398b stand and it sounded like we were in a studio... man it was great.

So the same info that we keep saying over and over... mic close when you can... is probably the single most important tip. This was a sit down interview in a crazy environment with all sorts of reflections and unwanted noise... but man it came out perfect.

I have about 15 blankets (8lbs each wool) that I bought for treating rooms... and I've been using them less and less lately. The last time I used them I covered a hard floor with all 15 of them... yeah, it helped... but if the shot will allow the mic to get about a foot closer then it would have been you'll get the most benefit by closing the distance.

This doesn't work for all shots... but in most cases I set up the cam and then ride the mic at the very edge of the frame.

 

[Joe_Kras]

So the same info that we keep saying over and over... mic close when you can... is probably the single most important tip.

I would love to shoot on a sound stage someday. But until then, most everything I do is shot in highly imperfect places, where it's always a question of "What's the least bad place to do this shot?", and modifiying the environment is out of the question. Micing close has gotten me "usable" audio at times when I thought it would be impossible.

 

[moonlitnite]

Peter,

Seems you're getting great coaching here and I'm sure by now you're spending more time in the archives and other new posts like this one. I'm a bit confused by your comment "...audio quaility will be most likely the first thing to suffer during compression of video" What codec/container will you be streaming, what's your audio rate and sampling, and how do you see being affected by compression? Also, what will the audience be using to view/listen to your streaming media? Inquiring minds must know...

Regards, Michael