Need help on figuring out how to record this event

[ttcdirecktor]

There's an event that happens in my house around Christmas once every year, so I'm looking to upgrade or add to my audio kit--currently a Rode NTG-2, Juicedlink CX231, and Zoom H1--to improve on the sound and at the the same time, be able to use what I get on other projects. But before I begin, I'd like to get a few things out of the way first.

1. My budget is $1500, but this does not include headphones, wind protection, or booms as I already have an idea of what I want for those. For this event, I'm going to set aside $200 for rentals while the rest will go to buying other equipment that I can use on this project and other non-related ones in the future; these can include short films or documentaries.
2. I don't make a living making videos. I'm a hobbyist trying to improve the sound portion of my videos with what I can afford.
3. I'll be shooting primarily indoors.
4. For most of the videos I do, I'll be uploading to Youtube. Others may be school projects or DVDs that I'd give to family or friends.
5. Since the videos I make are non-professional, unpaid for the most part, and being uploaded to Youtube, I don't think hiring a sound guy will be necessary for my needs.
6. As of now, I'm a one-man-band, so I'll be running the sound portion for my videos.

Anyway, this event is basically a competition that involves a lot of party games crammed into one night. Since this is the only time of the year where I can see many of my close relatives and friends at the same time, I want the production quality to be the best it can be while staying in budget. Essentially, what I want to do is capture the ambient sounds better and improve on the dialog recording. For the last one, I used a Zoom H1 mounted on camera to record the ambience and a NTG-2 to capture dialog (I ended up not using the audio from it). The NTG-2 was also mounted on camera, and yes, I know it isn't the best place for it, but I couldn't think of another way since it would be impossible to predict who will be speaking at any given moment. Having 16 or so people playing games--not counting the ones not playing--and a host doesn't make it any easier for me either. Here's a sample clip to give you an idea of what I'm trying capture and to show you the type of location I'll be recording in:

How would you record audio in this situation? I want to go for a stereo setup for ambience, so I could either rent a stereo mic or rent a pair of cardioids (possibly a couple Schoeps CMC621s). If I go with the single mic it'll be placed in the center of the ceiling. For the pair, I was thinking of mounting each one on the blades of the 2 ceiling fans in the room, or using a stereo mount and placing that in the center. Here's a pic for reference:



The dimensions of the playing area is 22'x18.5'. The ceiling is about 8.5' high, and from the floor to the blades of the fans the height is about 7'. The distance between the tips of the blades on both fans when facing each other is about 9'.

On another note, how important would it be to have a matched pair of mics when doing stereo, and would it even be critical for what I'm trying to record? I can't find any place where I can rent a matched pair of Schoeps CMC621s. I live in LA county, so if I were renting I'd probably go to Audio Rents or Location Sounds.

For the host, I could either rent or buy (depending if my budget allows it) a Sennheiser G3 wireless system using either a lav or an ENG mic with the Sennheiser SKP 100. Although, right now I'm leaning towards the ENG solution since it won't be restricted only to the host. What I do want to purchase for myself, though, is a hyper and at the moment I'm interested in the Audix SCX1-HC. I've read that it sounds like the Schoeps, so I assume they would pair together well. I'm planning on mounting this mic on cam for those random moments when the competitors speak directly to the camera (there's a sample of this in the video after the team on the right wins their match). If I did this, I would probably have to use my Juicedlink and feed the signal into my H1, which would mean another preamp and/or a digital recorder for the stereo pair mics on the ceiling. So far, this is the solution I've come up with.

So how would you guys do it, and what kind of equipment would you recommend I get that would help cover not only this event, but also short films and documentaries I plan on doing in the nearby future? Right now, I know a hyper is a must as I know I'll be using it (properly) for short films. On top of that, maybe even a better digital recorder. I'm unsure on everything else though.

 

[Jema]

Thank you for providing this amount of information - it really helps to give advice suitable for your needs.
Question 1: How long will each take be? If they are very long, as in a couple of hours, I would be a bit worried about staying in sync. Have you done this with your current setup before, and how did that work out for you?
Question 2: What camera are you using? I assume it's an DSLR considering the juicedlink.

The situation is a bit tricky considering you seem to want to do it with a minimum amount of mics. If you were using many mics they could be planted all over the place and give you plenty of coverage, but that would mean less money for purchase and more for rent, and the need for a larger recorder with many channels and more time in for post selecting among the many tracks.

Regarding the stereo perspective, a pair of cardioids on the fans are a good idea, but I think this would be more useful as an ambiance than for clear dialogue. The reason is that the fans are positioned close to the sides of the room, and assuming people will be facing towards the center, the mics might be somewhat off-axis (almost behind peoples heads). Because of this, I would be very tempted to try and put one or two mics closer to the center of the action. The ceiling is a valid candidate (maybe a boundary mic is a good choice here), but I wouldn't rule out putting a lav on a piece of furniture or similar if there is anything with a good position (that won't be tampered with). Also, a lav on a person could pick up much more than just him/her, especially if put quite low on the body. If there are one or two central persons, it could be worth considering having a lav on them. More channels to think about though...

About using a matched pair, this is more relevant with cheaper mics that doesn't have a high level of quality control and therefor can differ a bit from each other. More expensive mics are usually quite similar and the need for matched pairs aren't as necessary unless it's a very critical application (such as classical music). Ask the manufacturer of the mics you are interested in.

For the host, either choices of a lav or handheld mic could work fine. If you think the host can handle a mic well (keeping it at a similar distance most of the time, aiming it if it's not an omni etc) and you would have need for it later on, then by all means get a handheld (it could also be a fun thing for the host to use for interviewing the contenders with).

As in regards to a hyper, the audix has a good reputation for it's price point (I haven't had the pleasure of using one), and is probably a good choice. It's a good idea to have a mic mounted on your cam, because even if it's a bad position in regards to sound quality, it can really help to isolate and get the things the camera is focusing on.

As a final note, the room seems very bare and might have a lot of reflections. Putting down carpets on the floor could really help with reducing them.

In summary: Assuming you have a hyper on the cam and a lav or handheld on the host, then unless you can somehow put the H1 in a good position at the center of the room, you will need to rent more mics and a recorder for them. If I was doing this, I would first look at the possibility of having one or two mics with a wide pattern close to the center (again, assuming that's were the action is). I would then plant one or two more mics to cover up for any potential weakness, which might also work as a stereo or ambience setup (there could be a position where the H1 would work for this). That will give one or two mics close to the action, supplemented by mics further away, and the host and cam can both pick up details as they move around the room. This would mean at least four tracks of audio, and maybe up to six.

 

[ttcdirecktor]

Hi Jema,

Thank you for taking the time and posting a long and detailed response. It was really helpful and informative.

Question 1: How long will each take be? If they are very long, as in a couple of hours, I would be a bit worried about staying in sync. Have you done this with your current setup before, and how did that work out for you?

This past event we played 40 different games, which took anywhere from 10-11 hours to complete; and this included breaks and set-up times. Completing each game took an average of about 3 minutes. I recorded both video and audio while they were playing and stopped as we were setting up for the next game, so I didn't have any syncing issues when editing. The master camera was recording the whole time, but I cut it down into parts and then synced with Pluraleyes. The final edited video came in at little under 2 hours.

Question 2: What camera are you using? I assume it's an DSLR considering the juicedlink.

Yes, it was a 60D.

Regarding the stereo perspective, a pair of cardioids on the fans are a good idea, but I think this would be more useful as an ambiance than for clear dialogue. The reason is that the fans are positioned close to the sides of the room, and assuming people will be facing towards the center, the mics might be somewhat off-axis (almost behind peoples heads). Because of this, I would be very tempted to try and put one or two mics closer to the center of the action. The ceiling is a valid candidate (maybe a boundary mic is a good choice here), but I wouldn't rule out putting a lav on a piece of furniture or similar if there is anything with a good position (that won't be tampered with). Also, a lav on a person could pick up much more than just him/her, especially if put quite low on the body. If there are one or two central persons, it could be worth considering having a lav on them. More channels to think about though...

The bad thing is that whoever is playing are the central persons, which means the bare minimum I'd need would have to be 8-10 lavs, or 16-20 if I didn't want to change lavs between persons after every game. This is why I opted using a camera-mounted mic because it's just more practical for me. However, placing them on things other than a person's clothing is something new to me. Perhaps putting them on the tables they play on could work too?

As for capturing ambience, my plan was to use the pair of cardioids and mounting each one on separate fans. I'm trying to create a stereo setup, but I'm unsure if spacing each mic 9 feet from each other would create a good stereo image. What do you think? Additionally, I could place a third mic in the center--possibly a wider cardioid like the MK21 to serve as backup and to capture the activity in the center.

For dialog, the handheld mic for the host and the camera-mounted hyper for everyone else is what I have in mind.

I've never heard of a boundary mic; I'll research on that more.

It's a good idea to have a mic mounted on your cam

I think that's the first time I've ever read that on these forums, so that's refreshing to hear to say the least haha.

As a final note, the room seems very bare and might have a lot of reflections. Putting down carpets on the floor could really help with reducing them.

Some games we use the floor to bounce ping pong balls, so a carpet might not work here unfortunately.

I think since that this event won't happen until another 10 months, I might consider raising my budget for rentals. The reason I'm posting this early is because I might have an event similar to this (but not as big) in the next few months, so all this information would help me prepare for those too.

 

[Jema]

placing them on things other than a person's clothing is something new to me. Perhaps putting them on the tables they play on could work too?

Lavs are quite often used as plant mics since they are easy to hide and as you mostly have wireless units for them they don't need cables. Also, having a wider pattern is good for plants since it's position can't be adjusted and it's easy for people to go off-axis. I would be a bit wary though about putting them directly on the table they are playing on, as bangs and hits could be transferred to the lav through the table. I haven't tried it myself though, so it might work if you found a good way to mount it (something to act as a shock mount).

As for capturing ambience, my plan was to use the pair of cardioids and mounting each one on separate fans. I'm trying to create a stereo setup, but I'm unsure if spacing each mic 9 feet from each other would create a good stereo image. What do you think? Additionally, I could place a third mic in the center--possibly a wider cardioid like the MK21 to serve as backup and to capture the activity in the center.

I haven't done much work with stereo setups, but in general you can say that the wider the distance, the more a "hole" is produced in the middle as both mics pick up less there than from the sides where they are closer. I don't think 9 feet is enough to make it a problem, and since it will just be a background and you will have the host, camera mic and maybe others in the middle it will probably work. Try it first if you can.

I've never heard of a boundary mic; I'll research on that more.

Since all surfaces reflect sound, it's generally not a good idea to put a normal mic to close to a hard surface as this can give phase issues (try it yourself - talk or just make an "s" sound towards a wall while moving closer to it, and you should be able to hear a shift in the highs that is almost like a flanging effect). Boundary mics are specifically made to put on surfaces, and can therefore sound more natural (they can also be less visually distractive.

It's a good idea to have a mic mounted on your cam
I think that's the first time I've ever read that on these forums, so that's refreshing to hear to say the least haha.

Yeah, it doesn't happen often. The reason that it's so heavily dismissed on this and similar forums, is because many beginners think it can give them good results, and it mostly wont. It puts the mic too far away in most shots, and it points along the plane in which a lot of sounds are coming from resulting in more background noise. So generally, it's not a good idea. Since you will be working alone, your two main problems are coverage, and having a sound that matches the perspective of the camera. A camera mounted mic might not give you great results, but to solve those problems it's better than nothing.

Some games we use the floor to bounce ping pong balls, so a carpet might not work here unfortunately.

If you put them where nothing stands on them (tables, chairs etc), a group of people could remove them and then put them back again in 30 seconds. I understand if you don't want to break the flow though.

I think it's great that you're out early with this - you'll have plenty of time to consider different approaches and advise (as I hope someone else will bring a second opinion on this topic).

 

[paulears]

How many cameras and people do you have? Before I think of spending money like this, I'd be doing a kind of audit of what is the most important aspects of the project. If the party is long and 'flexible' then a cardioid on the camera, a shotgun on a boom, and maybe a high up single piece stereo mic, or a pair of coincident cardioids would be the way I'd do it. The camera mic I would suggest is idea to record what the camera focusses on, with the others for room sounds and general pickup. Somebody who can run a boom, or even in this case a hand held shotgun would have a good chance of capturing the critical sounds, if they come from other than the camera direction. If you start to use planted lavs, then you need to be able to record all their sources separately, for sensible decisions later.

 

[ttcdirecktor]

How many cameras and people do you have?

I used 4, but this year I'm planning on using 5. 4 of them would be GoPros and the other a 60D, which will be handheld.

I can't say for sure how many people there will be, but every year there's always at least 16 competitors and then others who just come to watch.

In general, my goal is to capture the whole atmosphere of the event while limiting reverb as much as possible. This ambient recording will be the main track of the video as I want to give viewers the impression that they were there watching all the action. Dialog only becomes critical at the beginning where the host welcomes everyone and explains the rules, and finally at the end where he announces the winners. During the games, there isn't much dialog going on other than people cheering on their teammates and then their celebrations after winning.

You mentioned a coincident pair of mics, so I assume you were referring to an X/Y setup. I was originally thinking of a spaced pair, but now I'm concerned of the "hole" in the middle. Since all the action will be happening in the center of the room, this could be a problem. An X/Y could probably handle this well, but I'm worried how much coverage I'd get with it since it's a much tighter spread than A/B.