Ok so check this out. My friend works for a guy who is about to produce a television show to be broadcasted on a major Spanish network. The program is similar to Wild On! E but is strictly local to San Diego, CA. So my friend asked me if I wanted to jump on board this project by using my gear to shoot and edit the show. He was not being really clear if I was going to get paid or not but I decided to still meet with the head guy and talk about the show a little more. So we met with some staff members and he never mentioned if I was going to be compensated for my work. He said that it was a low budget thing and that if the show went national that we would all have part ownership of the project. Anyways, I get a call this week from my friend and he wants me to go shoot some stuff on Saturday. I told him that before we go any further that we should discuss business: am I gonna get paid or not? I don't think he liked that very much and he sounded a bit surprised. He still could not tell me if I was going to get paid or not. Ok so I dont want to make this that long. This sounds like a very interesting project and it has a lot of potential. If you believed in this project would you ask for some compensation or would you ride it out for free with hopes of making it big?
Need help negotiating
- Thread starter molocono
- Start date
Re: Need help negotiating
a friend or anyone else working professionally for that matter should have no reason to not be up front with you about pay, and whats entailed. sounds like hes either holding some info, or some money from you. not a good way to do business. id walk unless you feel like working for free. cause without a clear contract written up regarding pay or dividends i wouldnt expect much of anything even if it does go big. just my 2c
a friend or anyone else working professionally for that matter should have no reason to not be up front with you about pay, and whats entailed. sounds like hes either holding some info, or some money from you. not a good way to do business. id walk unless you feel like working for free. cause without a clear contract written up regarding pay or dividends i wouldnt expect much of anything even if it does go big. just my 2c
Re: Need help negotiating
Yeah, I feel he is not being up front fearing that I will walk away from the project. He knows I'm a cheap alternative to hiring an actual production company. The guy he works for has been running a music magazine for 6 years now and hasnt really taken it anywhere. He doesnt pay any of his writers and they are mainly recent grads who need some experience. I'm not at that level anymore and I think he expects me to take this as a resume builder. I'm going to talk to the main guy today and find out what really is going on. I think I have the right to ask for some sort of compensation, right?
Yeah, I feel he is not being up front fearing that I will walk away from the project. He knows I'm a cheap alternative to hiring an actual production company. The guy he works for has been running a music magazine for 6 years now and hasnt really taken it anywhere. He doesnt pay any of his writers and they are mainly recent grads who need some experience. I'm not at that level anymore and I think he expects me to take this as a resume builder. I'm going to talk to the main guy today and find out what really is going on. I think I have the right to ask for some sort of compensation, right?
Re: Need help negotiating
you have the right to be treated in a professional manner and be told what the compensation details of the project are in a clear and straightforward manner. anything less and i wouldnt waste my time. they dont have any reason to be shady.. unless they ARE being shady.
you have the right to be treated in a professional manner and be told what the compensation details of the project are in a clear and straightforward manner. anything less and i wouldnt waste my time. they dont have any reason to be shady.. unless they ARE being shady.
Re: Need help negotiating
You are gonna put in more time (and money equipment etc) than most people on this project. So if anyone gets paid you should. Even i fno one gets paid, you should. This is triple true if you are going to edit it as well. If you don't need it for you resume, you have no reason to do it for free. You are the only one who can decide how much is "enough", based on whatever you value your time at. But you have already told us that these people are not "make it happen" types, so betting on the future is a losing bet. If they REALLY wanted to give you a piece of the production ownership, they would have a written contract to that effect NOW (along with a partnership or LLC established for just that purpose).
You are gonna put in more time (and money equipment etc) than most people on this project. So if anyone gets paid you should. Even i fno one gets paid, you should. This is triple true if you are going to edit it as well. If you don't need it for you resume, you have no reason to do it for free. You are the only one who can decide how much is "enough", based on whatever you value your time at. But you have already told us that these people are not "make it happen" types, so betting on the future is a losing bet. If they REALLY wanted to give you a piece of the production ownership, they would have a written contract to that effect NOW (along with a partnership or LLC established for just that purpose).
KOVAROVA
Veteran
Re: Need help negotiating
becareful here. “What is you budget ? ” or “what type of budget will I be working with?” should have been asked at the beginning. When money is involved parameters are set and jobs get finished. Without it you are opening yourself to a world of trouble. What does part ownership mean? If you believe in it set your parameters. And if they like you they will meet your needs. Otherwise you are opening yourself up to being used.
Neil R’s two cents are totally correct.
Beware.
“ in hopes of making it big”... that is not the way of going about making decisions.
becareful here. “What is you budget ? ” or “what type of budget will I be working with?” should have been asked at the beginning. When money is involved parameters are set and jobs get finished. Without it you are opening yourself to a world of trouble. What does part ownership mean? If you believe in it set your parameters. And if they like you they will meet your needs. Otherwise you are opening yourself up to being used.
Neil R’s two cents are totally correct.
Beware.
“ in hopes of making it big”... that is not the way of going about making decisions.
Re: Need help negotiating
So I talked to the main guy today and he said that they do not have a budget for this production. He went on saying that there are sponsors interested in this and that they have this planned out, but that money might be coming in later. He also said that he is not getting ANY money out of this. I can't believe this guy! Another comment I liked was "Well I have this editor who has won 16 Emmys and he is interested in the project." Well I highly doubt that this guy will work for free. Anyways, the producer guy still wants me to meet him tomorrow because he wants to explain to me the business plan that they have. In other words, he is gonna try to convince me to work for free. I'm gonna go, but if he can't be straight with me I'm walking out.
So I talked to the main guy today and he said that they do not have a budget for this production. He went on saying that there are sponsors interested in this and that they have this planned out, but that money might be coming in later. He also said that he is not getting ANY money out of this. I can't believe this guy! Another comment I liked was "Well I have this editor who has won 16 Emmys and he is interested in the project." Well I highly doubt that this guy will work for free. Anyways, the producer guy still wants me to meet him tomorrow because he wants to explain to me the business plan that they have. In other words, he is gonna try to convince me to work for free. I'm gonna go, but if he can't be straight with me I'm walking out.
wabbit
Evil has Ears
Re: Need help negotiating
Tell him you will work for free as a intern assistant editor under the guy with 16 emmys (see how quickly that phantom guy goes away).
The guy is probably jerking you around. Explain to him that by asking you to work for some deferred pay he is essential asking you to invest in this show. You would love to invest because you believe in the show's potential but you don't have the financial means to invest in something like that right now. Suggest that there are plenty of people who have money to invest in his venture and to get your salary from them.
That is the general outline of what I tell people who ask me to work for deferred pay.
Tell him you will work for free as a intern assistant editor under the guy with 16 emmys (see how quickly that phantom guy goes away).
The guy is probably jerking you around. Explain to him that by asking you to work for some deferred pay he is essential asking you to invest in this show. You would love to invest because you believe in the show's potential but you don't have the financial means to invest in something like that right now. Suggest that there are plenty of people who have money to invest in his venture and to get your salary from them.
That is the general outline of what I tell people who ask me to work for deferred pay.
Barry_Green
Moderator
Re: Need help negotiating
Yeah, I've heard this pitch a million times. It never amounts to anything. If they can't find $300 to pay you a minimal wage for a day of shooting, there's no way the show will get on the air or ever go anywhere.
Last time I got a call like this I passed it on to a new videographer who was trying to get established. He actually did go out and shoot with the guys, and it was of course a complete joke, it was more of a situation where the "host" wanted to pick up chicks by pretending he had a TV show (and of course there was no pay ever).
Good luck, but the guy's already told you there's no budget, so there's usually also no point (unless you really want to work for free just for the fun of it, which we all occasionally do).
Yeah, I've heard this pitch a million times. It never amounts to anything. If they can't find $300 to pay you a minimal wage for a day of shooting, there's no way the show will get on the air or ever go anywhere.
Last time I got a call like this I passed it on to a new videographer who was trying to get established. He actually did go out and shoot with the guys, and it was of course a complete joke, it was more of a situation where the "host" wanted to pick up chicks by pretending he had a TV show (and of course there was no pay ever).
Good luck, but the guy's already told you there's no budget, so there's usually also no point (unless you really want to work for free just for the fun of it, which we all occasionally do).
J_Barnes
Veteran
Re: Need help negotiating
If the guy is pushing this hard, he probably doesn't have a backup camera guy (or any equipment!). Tell him flat out, cash on shoot, cash on edit delivery.
If he cares about the project, he'll find a way. If he's set on not paying, he'll find someone else. Plain and simple.
If the guy is pushing this hard, he probably doesn't have a backup camera guy (or any equipment!). Tell him flat out, cash on shoot, cash on edit delivery.
If he cares about the project, he'll find a way. If he's set on not paying, he'll find someone else. Plain and simple.
Re: Need help negotiating
OK, so I talked to the guy today and he said that he can pay me once the show gets on the air and sponsors start throwing in money. They are shooting for a May air date and want a couple of shows done before then. He asked me to write out a proposal that included my rates and then he would tell me if he can go with it or not. So, now I need help with rates. Here is what I would be doing:
Every week I would edit a 22 minute show. I would have to edit all the packages that were shot that week and then put them all together to complete the piece. I would also go out and shoot maybe two days out of the week from 1 - 3 hours each day. I dont know how I should go about charging him: per hour, per day, per finished piece, etc. Any suggestions? Also, what kind of rates would you negotiate for shooting and editing? I'm looking for something reasonable, but I also dont want to sell myself short.
OK, so I talked to the guy today and he said that he can pay me once the show gets on the air and sponsors start throwing in money. They are shooting for a May air date and want a couple of shows done before then. He asked me to write out a proposal that included my rates and then he would tell me if he can go with it or not. So, now I need help with rates. Here is what I would be doing:
Every week I would edit a 22 minute show. I would have to edit all the packages that were shot that week and then put them all together to complete the piece. I would also go out and shoot maybe two days out of the week from 1 - 3 hours each day. I dont know how I should go about charging him: per hour, per day, per finished piece, etc. Any suggestions? Also, what kind of rates would you negotiate for shooting and editing? I'm looking for something reasonable, but I also dont want to sell myself short.
grinner
Carbonite Member
Re: Need help negotiating
if your cool with doing a spec gig that will benefit your reel, do it.
If your reel doesn't need it, you don't need to work for free anymore.
Because he balked when you asked, you know there is no budget left over for you. Just decide if you wanna do it free or not. It's not as if you'll get paid later when sponsors show up.
As for as how to charge, it's best to charge by the hour. A day can be 5 hours or easily 15. Charging by the day will get you exploited alot. Flat rates per gig are tough too because revisions can simply kill you. Charging by the hour ensures you'll always get paid for the work you do. You can still submit bids by calculating how many hours you think it'll take and stipulating this is just an estimate based on those hours.
As for as negotiating goes, I simply try not to. I sometimes have to but by in large, I simply state my rate and leave it at that. Time is money and waisting time haggling is money lost.
If they dig you, they'll pay it. If they don't, they wouldn't come to you at the lowest rate anyway. Futhermore, it's much better to be known as the best in town rather than the cheapest.
if your cool with doing a spec gig that will benefit your reel, do it.
If your reel doesn't need it, you don't need to work for free anymore.
Because he balked when you asked, you know there is no budget left over for you. Just decide if you wanna do it free or not. It's not as if you'll get paid later when sponsors show up.
As for as how to charge, it's best to charge by the hour. A day can be 5 hours or easily 15. Charging by the day will get you exploited alot. Flat rates per gig are tough too because revisions can simply kill you. Charging by the hour ensures you'll always get paid for the work you do. You can still submit bids by calculating how many hours you think it'll take and stipulating this is just an estimate based on those hours.
As for as negotiating goes, I simply try not to. I sometimes have to but by in large, I simply state my rate and leave it at that. Time is money and waisting time haggling is money lost.
If they dig you, they'll pay it. If they don't, they wouldn't come to you at the lowest rate anyway. Futhermore, it's much better to be known as the best in town rather than the cheapest.
Re: Need help negotiating
I no longer need to work for free, so that is why I'm trying to get this guy to pay up. He said that there are investors involved in this project and that he is making deals with sponsors already. I know there is a budget, there has to be, but he is saying otherwise. He agreed to pay me, but not right now. That is why we are gonna make a contract which will state when I am going to get paid and how much. My idea is to have him pay up once I complete 2 or 3 shows. Once he pays me he gets his show and the master tapes, nothing til then. Now, as far as negotiating goes, I know he is not gonna dig my rates so I was thining about coming up with provisional rates for the first two or three shows, and then after that he has to pay me the full amount. Maybe even throw in some interest. Your thoughts?
As far as rates, my idea is $75/hour for editing and $500/day shooting. I would probably be shooting 3 days out of the week for 3 -5 hours each day. My DVX package included basic lighting, basic audio, and tripod. Whatcha think?
I no longer need to work for free, so that is why I'm trying to get this guy to pay up. He said that there are investors involved in this project and that he is making deals with sponsors already. I know there is a budget, there has to be, but he is saying otherwise. He agreed to pay me, but not right now. That is why we are gonna make a contract which will state when I am going to get paid and how much. My idea is to have him pay up once I complete 2 or 3 shows. Once he pays me he gets his show and the master tapes, nothing til then. Now, as far as negotiating goes, I know he is not gonna dig my rates so I was thining about coming up with provisional rates for the first two or three shows, and then after that he has to pay me the full amount. Maybe even throw in some interest. Your thoughts?
As far as rates, my idea is $75/hour for editing and $500/day shooting. I would probably be shooting 3 days out of the week for 3 -5 hours each day. My DVX package included basic lighting, basic audio, and tripod. Whatcha think?
KOVAROVA
Veteran
Re: Need help negotiating
[quote author=molocono link=board=MesPhotos;num=1109356079;start=0#10 date=02/27/05 at 01:48:18]
Every week I would edit a 22 minute show. I would have to edit all the packages that were shot that week and then put them all together to complete the piece. I would also go out and shoot maybe two days out of the week from 1 - 3 hours each day. [/quote]
Have you ever done anything like this? it is no small feat to turn around a 22 min show in a week... are you capable of doing this? do you realise how much work is involved? how many weeks have you been asked to do this for? how do you cover your expenses while you are working 7 days a week for free? have they at least offered to feed you?
i would offer to do 1 episode and ask to spend a bit more than a week at it. this will at least give you a template for the others and if it all falls apart you haven't lost too much. maybe you should consider asking to cover your expenses for that one episode. if they like it they could show that episode to the 'investors' and get you some money for the others.
if you "no longer need to work for free" then why bother? is this 'wild on e' type show going to change the world or something?
[quote author=molocono link=board=MesPhotos;num=1109356079;start=0#10 date=02/27/05 at 01:48:18]
Every week I would edit a 22 minute show. I would have to edit all the packages that were shot that week and then put them all together to complete the piece. I would also go out and shoot maybe two days out of the week from 1 - 3 hours each day. [/quote]
Have you ever done anything like this? it is no small feat to turn around a 22 min show in a week... are you capable of doing this? do you realise how much work is involved? how many weeks have you been asked to do this for? how do you cover your expenses while you are working 7 days a week for free? have they at least offered to feed you?
i would offer to do 1 episode and ask to spend a bit more than a week at it. this will at least give you a template for the others and if it all falls apart you haven't lost too much. maybe you should consider asking to cover your expenses for that one episode. if they like it they could show that episode to the 'investors' and get you some money for the others.
if you "no longer need to work for free" then why bother? is this 'wild on e' type show going to change the world or something?
grinner
Carbonite Member
Re: Need help negotiating
I think you should still go into looking at it as a spec gig. If you happen to get paid down the line by some rare stretch of luck, it'll be gravy. In my experience, dudes like this just don't pay. If he intended to pay, he wouldn't have a problem with your rate and paying you within 30 days of your invoice. That's simply how it's done and people get very creative in ways of not paying. A percentage later is the number one way.
Are you editing at home or do you have a client-friendly facility? This will affect your rate greatly.
Your gear, talent, speed and the market your in do too.
Are you offering a half day rate since your shooting for 3-5 hours?
I think you should still go into looking at it as a spec gig. If you happen to get paid down the line by some rare stretch of luck, it'll be gravy. In my experience, dudes like this just don't pay. If he intended to pay, he wouldn't have a problem with your rate and paying you within 30 days of your invoice. That's simply how it's done and people get very creative in ways of not paying. A percentage later is the number one way.
Are you editing at home or do you have a client-friendly facility? This will affect your rate greatly.
Your gear, talent, speed and the market your in do too.
Are you offering a half day rate since your shooting for 3-5 hours?
Re: Need help negotiating
[quote author=KOVAROVA link=board=MesPhotos;num=1109356079;start=0#13 date=02/27/05 at 16:23:22]
if you "no longer need to work for free" then why bother? is this 'wild on e' type show going to change the world or something?[/quote]
I'm not going to work for free. I already told him that. Now its just a matter of figuring out rates and when he is going to pay me. Im trying to put together a deal where I can guarantee payment.
The show is going to be broadcasted on the network I work for. The station is not paying them for the show, they are just giving them free promotion and commercial spots that they can sell.
[quote author=KOVAROVA link=board=MesPhotos;num=1109356079;start=0#13 date=02/27/05 at 16:23:22]
if you "no longer need to work for free" then why bother? is this 'wild on e' type show going to change the world or something?[/quote]
I'm not going to work for free. I already told him that. Now its just a matter of figuring out rates and when he is going to pay me. Im trying to put together a deal where I can guarantee payment.
The show is going to be broadcasted on the network I work for. The station is not paying them for the show, they are just giving them free promotion and commercial spots that they can sell.
Re: Need help negotiating
[quote author=grinner link=board=MesPhotos;num=1109356079;start=0#14 date=02/27/05 at
Are you editing at home or do you have a client-friendly facility? This will affect your rate greatly.
Your gear, talent, speed and the market your in do too.
Are you offering a half day rate since your shooting for 3-5 hours?[/quote]
Ill be doing the editing at home. And yes, I would be offering a half-day rate. Could you suggest some rates? Since I would be shooting and editing a 1/2 hour show each week would it be best to just give him a flat rate for the whole program?
[quote author=grinner link=board=MesPhotos;num=1109356079;start=0#14 date=02/27/05 at
Are you editing at home or do you have a client-friendly facility? This will affect your rate greatly.
Your gear, talent, speed and the market your in do too.
Are you offering a half day rate since your shooting for 3-5 hours?[/quote]
Ill be doing the editing at home. And yes, I would be offering a half-day rate. Could you suggest some rates? Since I would be shooting and editing a 1/2 hour show each week would it be best to just give him a flat rate for the whole program?
grinner
Carbonite Member
Re: Need help negotiating
Not for you but he may require it. If your editing unsupervised, you'llprobably have to go that route.
I can't guess how long it would take you as I don't know how extensive it is or how many elements you have to sigt through. You have a good idea though so multiply those hours by what you wanna make per hour and add a bit for revisions.
You may eat some in the beginning but as ya go, you'll get the show very streamlined and otta do ok.
Not for you but he may require it. If your editing unsupervised, you'llprobably have to go that route.
I can't guess how long it would take you as I don't know how extensive it is or how many elements you have to sigt through. You have a good idea though so multiply those hours by what you wanna make per hour and add a bit for revisions.
You may eat some in the beginning but as ya go, you'll get the show very streamlined and otta do ok.
Barry_Green
Moderator
Re: Need help negotiating
Everything about this says you'll be working for free. Agreement or no, you're not likely to get a dime.
I never take *any* job without at least 1/3 down, usually half down up front. And they *never* get the final tape without the final check in hand.
So tell him you'll do the first show for a flat fee of $4000... $2,000 down, $2,000 upon delivery.
You'll never see him again. And if you do, he'll have a check for $2000 in his hand. So either way, you win.
And if he does pay up? Forget rates and equipment and stuff like that... you'll just have landed a full-time gig that pays $16,000 per month, and your cash expenses are zero. How can you argue with that?
Everything about this says you'll be working for free. Agreement or no, you're not likely to get a dime.
I never take *any* job without at least 1/3 down, usually half down up front. And they *never* get the final tape without the final check in hand.
So tell him you'll do the first show for a flat fee of $4000... $2,000 down, $2,000 upon delivery.
You'll never see him again. And if you do, he'll have a check for $2000 in his hand. So either way, you win.
And if he does pay up? Forget rates and equipment and stuff like that... you'll just have landed a full-time gig that pays $16,000 per month, and your cash expenses are zero. How can you argue with that?
J_Barnes
Veteran
Re: Need help negotiating
Ditto what barry said above. Remember, your time costs you money. Every minute you work for free or spec is a minute you could be fielding other offers or working on other shows.
You should figure out what your base costs are for living every day. Food, rent, insurance, utilities, transportation, entertainment, equipment, etc. Add up all those things and you'll have a base-cost for existing each day.
Take a serious look at that number and then remind yourself that if this guy isn't giving you anything up front, you are paying him X dollars to work on his show (of which you retain zero ownership). Do you really want to be an investor in his project? If so, what are you getting out of it and what are your guarantees?
If your fine answering all those questions, then go for it. If not, then state your price to show up and consider that the end of negotiations.
Ditto what barry said above. Remember, your time costs you money. Every minute you work for free or spec is a minute you could be fielding other offers or working on other shows.
You should figure out what your base costs are for living every day. Food, rent, insurance, utilities, transportation, entertainment, equipment, etc. Add up all those things and you'll have a base-cost for existing each day.
Take a serious look at that number and then remind yourself that if this guy isn't giving you anything up front, you are paying him X dollars to work on his show (of which you retain zero ownership). Do you really want to be an investor in his project? If so, what are you getting out of it and what are your guarantees?
If your fine answering all those questions, then go for it. If not, then state your price to show up and consider that the end of negotiations.