Need help minimizing outside sound

[Richard Crowley]

There were several problems with the wireless mic. Lots of noise on movements. It kept dropping out. And the biggest problem was he often has his assistant pulled tight against him when demonstrating a hold or position -- effectively covering the mic with the guy's body.

None of that would be a problem with a headset mic. Sounds like you were trying to use a clip-on lav body mic. NOT recommended for exercise/martial arts.

Additionally, the wireless mics we have are omnis, which means even more likelihood of picking up the street noise.

The point is that a headset mic is an inch or two way from the instructor's mouth. That makes the ratio of the desired signal to the ambient noise enormously larger than using a distant (boom) mic, or even a clip-on body mic on the chest, etc.

 

[David W. Richardson]

I understand these things.

But (1) we don't have a headset mic. We have a wireless lav and the NTG-2.

...and (2) The client probably wouldn't want to wear a headset mic even if we had it. Given some of the falls, rolls, and other things he does in the course of the video, I'm not sure I'd blame him. I think a headset mic and its transmitter pack would be difficult to work with in parts of the video.

I know that there are lots of things that would work better than what we have. But what we have is what we have. We're not looking to invest in new gear for this project. We're just trying to minimize the external noise as much as we can, in order to get the best sound we can from the gear we have.

As I said at the beginning, we're making no significant money on this -- just trying to help a friend. And while I want to do the best I can for him, I'm just not in a position to shell out from my own pocket for better gear. Wish I was.

As for renting, the only decent rental house we had went south on us some time ago. The few other places that remain require a ton of insurance and several credit references. The rental house we used to have would just hold onto my credit card info in lieu of a deposit or insurance. So basically, renting isn't an option either.

 

[Richard Crowley]

We're just trying to minimize the external noise as much as we can, in order to get the best sound we can from the gear we have.

Just be aware, that approach is the LEAST effective of all your options. Let this be a lesson to others of how critically important it is to select a suitable location.

Even an inexpensive ($25) headset mic is far more effective than spending $2500 trying to reduce ambient noise, or using a $2500 shotgun mic on a boom.

Consider also dialog replacement (ADR, "looping") as a post-production work-around for unsuitable tracks.

 

[David G. Smith]

Consider also dialog replacement (ADR, "looping") as a post-production work-around for unsuitable tracks.

If doing post ADR is not an option, at LEAST get some good clean production "Wild Tracks", that you may use latter. Setting up some takes just for sound, with the mics close to the talent, may just be an ace up your sleeve in post. If the talent is doing a lot of robust action, as you say, you may want to get as much of the presentation/script as a "Wild Track" as possible, just in case.

 

[Ted Spencer]

Considering all the limitations, it's possible that a somewhat compromised sound track, "cinema verite" style, might be acceptable. I'd certainly make your client well aware of the consequences of all the problems the venue introduces so his expectations aren't unrealistic, but some excess room tone and traffic noise might just be tolerable for this sort of a shoot. It also might be unavoidable, given what you've stipulated...

 

[David W. Richardson]

Just be aware, that approach is the LEAST effective of all your options.

It's my ONLY option. If I had money, I'd have other options. With no money, this is the only option I have.

Let this be a lesson to others of how critically important it is to select a suitable location.

Okay, let it be a lesson to others. I don't need a lesson on choosing locations. The client chose this location because it's where he teaches his class. A good lesson for others is that sometimes you don't get to choose the location, that choice is made for you. My job now is to make it work as best I can within the confines of what I have available.

Even an inexpensive ($25) headset mic is far more effective than spending $2500 trying to reduce ambient noise, or using a $2500 shotgun mic on a boom.

We've been through this. The man won't WEAR a headset, and given the rough and tumble activity he demonstrates, I highly doubt a headset is even practical for this situation. No way is a headset going to stay in place when the man is getting himself out of a headlock, for instance.

Consider also dialog replacement (ADR, "looping") as a post-production work-around for unsuitable tracks.

The man is a cop and a martial arts instructor. He's not an actor. He has no experience with looping dialogue. It's very likely any looping he did would not even come close to matching lip synch.

All I asked was how to make the outside noise less loud coming into the room. Hay bales was an interesting and creative possible solution, and certainly worth a try. I appreciate that.

Yes, I do know there are all sorts of things that would do a better job -- better equipment for the task, or a better location. I have no choice but to use the location the client has given me. I have no choice but to use the gear that I have available to me. So I know I'm not going to wind up with 'Hollywood quality' sound. Right now I'm just looking for suggestions on how to get the best results I can with the gear I have and the location I have to work in.

 

[Steve House]

This guy does NOT sound like someone who is going to be very understanding when the sound turns out poorly, even though it's due to the conditions he's imposed on the shoot.

 

[dre83]

The best solution for this would be voice-over then if the traffic is to heavy. But I can't image being inside with windows closed and door closed it's going to be crap....

Other solution: try booming under... some might kill me know, but sometimes it's better

 

[David W. Richardson]

The best solution for this would be voice-over then if the traffic is to heavy. But I can't image being inside with windows closed and door closed it's going to be crap....

Other solution: try booming under... some might kill me know, but sometimes it's better

I will try booming under. Thanks for that.

 

[David W. Richardson]

This guy does NOT sound like someone who is going to be very understanding when the sound turns out poorly, even though it's due to the conditions he's imposed on the shoot.

You could NOT be more wrong. He's a damn nice guy who's trying to help some folks who might not otherwise be able to afford lessons. He's just happy that I'm helping him, and will gladly take whatever I can provide for him. He would never complain. I'm the one who is trying to do the best job I can for him, on a very limited budget.

 

[unclebob6958]

I'm sure that all of the really "pro" guys will jump all over me for this, but...

For sound isolation and control I've use Celotex, a cork-like fiberboard that does a remarkable job considering it's thickness. My entire studio is sheathed in Celotex with the sheetrock over it. I took the left-over sheets and made gobos out of it; two 4' x 4' pieces mounted on either side of a square frame made of 2" x 1/2" pine with a corner to corner X for support, covered with left-over carpeting. They do a pretty good job.

For your project you could suspend a stereo mic or a stereo pair over the class and boom the instructor. You would, of course need three tracks for audio. Since the source material will probably be fairly loud (kiais, body falls, punches, etc. and the instructor probably speaks in a fairly loud/firm voice) you would have to watch the levels carefully but combined with the sound isolation (hay bales or whatever) you should get passable audio.

Oh, another thought; a dojo has a matt on the floor. Perhaps they have some additional matts that you could mount on C-stands in front of the windows?

 

[David W. Richardson]

I'm sure that all of the really "pro" guys will jump all over me for this, but...

For sound isolation and control I've use Celotex, a cork-like fiberboard that does a remarkable job considering it's thickness. My entire studio is sheathed in Celotex with the sheetrock over it. I took the left-over sheets and made gobos out of it; two 4' x 4' pieces mounted on either side of a square frame made of 2" x 1/2" pine with a corner to corner X for support, covered with left-over carpeting. They do a pretty good job.

For your project you could suspend a stereo mic or a stereo pair over the class and boom the instructor. You would, of course need three tracks for audio. Since the source material will probably be fairly loud (kiais, body falls, punches, etc. and the instructor probably speaks in a fairly loud/firm voice) you would have to watch the levels carefully but combined with the sound isolation (hay bales or whatever) you should get passable audio.

Oh, another thought; a dojo has a matt on the floor. Perhaps they have some additional matts that you could mount on C-stands in front of the windows?

Interesting idea about the Celotex. I'll check that out.

There's no class involved, just the instructor and his assistant. So that simplifies the mic arrangement. My plan is to just boom the instructor with the NTG-2, probably booming from below as suggested earlier. Hopefully that won't give too much bass to his voice, which is already pretty deep.

The NTG-2 will be pointed away from the street traffic, but I understand it still gets some rear pickup. I once constructed a 12"x12"x12" box and lined it with sound absorbing foam. I used it for voiceover work, placing the microphone on a tabletop stand inside the box. Maybe I can mount that box behind the NTG-2 and hope it helps reduce some of the mic's rear pickup.

Thanks for the ideas!

 

[Steve House]

Interesting idea about the Celotex. I'll check that out.

There's no class involved, just the instructor and his assistant. So that simplifies the mic arrangement. My plan is to just boom the instructor with the NTG-2, probably booming from below as suggested earlier. Hopefully that won't give too much bass to his voice, which is already pretty deep.

The NTG-2 will be pointed away from the street traffic, but I understand it still gets some rear pickup. I once constructed a 12"x12"x12" box and lined it with sound absorbing foam. I used it for voiceover work, placing the microphone on a tabletop stand inside the box. Maybe I can mount that box behind the NTG-2 and hope it helps reduce some of the mic's rear pickup.

Thanks for the ideas!

Remember too, if the mic is pointed at the subject from roughly eye level, it will be horizontal and anything outside directly behind the instructor or directly behind the mic will be in either its front or rear lobe and picked up. But if you boom high so you're pointing down with the mic at a 45 degree angle or boom from below so you're firing up at a similar angle, the only thing besides the instructor himself that falls into the lobes will be empty floor or empty ceiling.

 

[dre83]

I will try booming under. Thanks for that.

You also have to listen if it works... sometimes it works sometimes not.

But it's one of the possible things you can do.

Is it a heavy road ? Or just one car every century ?

 

[David W. Richardson]

Remember too, if the mic is pointed at the subject from roughly eye level, it will be horizontal and anything outside directly behind the instructor or directly behind the mic will be in either its front or rear lobe and picked up. But if you boom high so you're pointing down with the mic at a 45 degree angle or boom from below so you're firing up at a similar angle, the only thing besides the instructor himself that falls into the lobes will be empty floor or empty ceiling.

Yeah, I usually boom from a high point. Almost never eye level. Sometimes I boom low, but that tends to get more sound from the chest, which means more bass. I'll experiment and see what works best.

The road is just a small two-lane road in a small town, but traffic is regular. No semi trucks, thankfully.