Need help for action footage 60i, 24p or 30p??????? Help please

M

mvp1

Member
I am shooting primarily action footage for a wakeboarding film that is to be distributed on DVD format. I need some help understanding the difference in shooting in progressive vs interlaced for action footage. Which is better? I am concerned because of the nature of the footage and angles I need to always have a quick responding auto focus which I have heard the DVX is not good at auto focus in 24 & 30p. If it helps to understand my application my trailer for my last production is a www.wakefilms.com

I would sincerely appreciate the help.
 
If you NEED quick-responding autofocus, then that settles the question right there -- you must shoot 60i. 24p and 30p will not meet that need.

Action is usually best captured at the highest frame rate you can get. 720p is perfect for sports because it's high-def, it's progressive, and it's 60 full frames per second -- which is why the big sports broadcasters (ABC, Fox, and ESPN) all chose 720/60p.

However, with a DVX, you don't have that option. The closest you can get is 60i. Your footage will look like "video" and not like film, but that's the distinction you have to make if you want to capture all the motion and have fast-responding autofocus.
 
thanks for the help, is there a camera that would work better for this application other than a DVX? That does 60p?
 
No, there are pretty much no 60p cameras out right now.

The only camera I can think of that does 60p is the JVC HD1. But it doesn't record DV, it records in MPEG-2. It does do 60p, but I don't think that it's nearly the camera that the DVX is, so if I was doing the shooting, I'd take a DVX/60i over the HD1/60p in a heartbeat.
 
Barry, thanks for the insight. I filmed my first film with a pan GS-400 interlaced 60i. I am trying to decide on a new cam. I have read the article regarding fx1, canon and dvx, do you still recommend the dvx for 60i over the fx1 considering I have to go interlaced? The canon is too big for the application.
Is there software that is worth converting 60i to progressive?
Many times when I film the cam is in a underwater housing that is why the auto focus is useful and often the subject being filmed is moving away or toward the cam very fast.
I assume from what I have read the JVC HD isn't even worth the discussion.
 
Hey mvp1 - I can't really help you with the answer, but Barry's the man so listen to him.
I just wanted to tell you I checked out the trailer on your site and I was blown away by the "Matrix" fly-around effects! Very sweet stuff.
 
Sirius_Doggy said:
Hey mvp1 - I can't really help you with the answer, but Barry's the man so listen to him.
I just wanted to tell you I checked out the trailer on your site and I was blown away by the "Matrix" fly-around effects! Very sweet stuff.
Click to expand...

Sirius_Doggy thanks for feedback, we have had a tremendous response in the wakeboard industry regarding those shots.
 
mvp1 said:
do you still recommend the dvx for 60i over the fx1 considering I have to go interlaced?
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Well, that depends on how much you value HD. If you're going interlaced anyway, then if you want high-def, the FX1 might be the right choice. Without trying it first, I would have serious concerns about shooting watersports with HDV though -- the sparkling sun shining off of sea spray could be the kind of circumstance that pushes HDV over the edge.

I think the DVX is a better camera overall than the FX1, but it isn't HD. And the FX1 will have a little longer zoom range too. If you don't need HD, but you want long zoom range, have you considered the DVC30 or DVC60? 16:1 zoom, very small (bigger than the GS400 though). Might do what you want. And Canon may very well have a surprise in store for us, it's getting close to July, and I still expect them to announce an HDV GL3 this year (even though that may be optimistic, they do frequently announce new products in the June/July timeframe).

Is there software that is worth converting 60i to progressive?
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I dunno... I mean, 60i converted to 60p would look awful next to genuine 60p. However, if you did decide to go with the FX1, maybe Graeme could write a filter that would extract each field from the FX1 and turn each HD field into a full standard-def progressive frame... that'd be pretty cool.

Honestly though, I think I'd probably lean towards suggesting you check out the FX1, but I just don't know how well the MPEG will handle the fine detail and splashing and sun glinting and stuff like that. If you can borrow one from someone and try it out, or rent one, and see if the footage holds up for what you're trying to do... then it might be a good choice. I'd try myself, but -- hey, this is Vegas, not a whole lotta wakeboarding going on around here! :)

I assume from what I have read the JVC HD isn't even worth the discussion.
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Not if you want autofocus (which it can't do) or recording 60p or 60i (because it can't). Might be a great camera for many uses, but certainly not yours.
 
Hey Barry, again thanks for the help, if it is the FX1 that I should consider, should I also consider the pro model (HVR-Z1U)? It appears to be the same cam as the FX1 except for I saw that the specs on a sony web page made reference to "480P true progressive mode ... for standard definition imagery." (http://bssc.sel.sony.com/BroadcastandBusiness/DisplayModel?id=78439 (under features tab))
Other than that I cannot see much difference between the two.

Have you tested this cam in true progressive mode?
 
Sirius_Doggy said:
Aww come on Barry - You got to go out to Lake Meade with me!!!:grin:
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Is there any water in Lake Mead? Last time I was out there it was horrendously low...

... some of our British members may have seen it, it was for an episode of Travel Sick where the host had to sweep a factory floor at the bottom of Lake Mead...
 
Have you tested this cam in true progressive mode?
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No, because there is *no* true progressive mode. There are several things about Sony's marketing of the Z1 that are flat-out deceptive, and the idea that there's any sort of progressive mode, or that it "shoots" in 24, 25, or 30 frames per second, are just plain wrong and misleading.

The camera can downconvert its 1080i signal to a 480p standard-def progressive signal. It cannot shoot progressive, it cannot acquire progressive. It can only downconvert its interlaced signal into a converted progressive.

The Z1 and FX1 are very similar; for your particular uses I don't know why you'd want to spend more on the Z1, as the main improvements are switchable 50i & 60i operation, XLR inputs (which won't do you any good in an underwater housing), SMPTE timecode, and a few other things...

I'm not recommending that you buy the FX1 or Z1, I'm saying that if high-def is important to you then perhaps the FX1 would be a good camera to consider. Again, you'll have to actually try it, under your proposed shooting circumstances. There was a guy on 2-pop who got an FX1 for shooting 4WD ATV stuff, and found the camera totally useless for that purpose, any vibration caused the image to fall apart. Not so with his prior camera (the PD150 or PD170). So you would definitely want to test it first.

If you have no need for high-def, then forget the FX1 completely, as there are better, less-expensive standard-def cameras.
 
I have absolutely nothing to contribute to the technical discussion, but like Mr. Doggy I just wanted to add that your trailer is simply amazing! Really phenomenal. In fact, I have to ask -- why not just do the same thing again? The quality of the shots looked superb...
 
That was really amazing - please let us know how you did that spin around matrix effect in what looks like an uncontrolled environment - did you put the boarder in front of a greenscreen?
 
The quality of the video was fairly good but I need to step up the look to compete with all of those 16mm wakeboarding film makers. I also needed a ton of light for my panasonic, if the rider wasn't in direct sunlight the quality of the picture suffered and got a lot of noise in the image. I sold my old panasonic 3 chip and purchased a FX1.
I have seen many reviews and dicussion on this cam, I plan to review this cam in detail for my application and dicuss the pro's and con's to this HD cam by sony.

And yes the green screen was used for the "matirx" style shots.

Thanks for the feedback.
 
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