Need Help Determining Least Common Demoninator for Frame Rate, Codec, and Workflow

Jonathan_Healey

Jonathan_Healey

Well-known member
I need help determining the best timeline setting and Compressor workflow to integrate footage with varying frame rates and codecs that I'm currently upres'ing for a multi-camera concert performance destined for HD broadcast output. I'm assuming the network needs 29.97.

Thus far, I've been working with Apple ProRes Proxy files to create lo-res edits. Now, I've started the task of offlining and ingesting new, HD clips from the proxy references. The content originates from either Panasonic HVX200 or Panasonic GH1 cameras.

Looking at the material, it appears the cameras were not shooting with the same settings and, somehow, a PAL GH1 got into the mix. Some of the performances have the PAL GH1 and other do not.

Here's the breakdown of the varying sources. I got this info from the Log & Transfer columns.

HVX Cameras
Format: 1080p24
Source Format: DVCPRO HD 1080i60
Shooting Rate: 24
Vid Rate: 29.97
TC Format: Non-Drop

GH1 NTSC
Format: 1080i60
Source Format: AVCHD 1080i60
Shooting Rate: 30
Video Rate: 29.97
TC Format: Drop

GH1 PAL
Format: 1080i50
Source Format: AVCHD 1080i50
Shooting Rate: 25
Video Rate: 25
TC Format: Non-Drop

ANOTHER GH1 NTSC
Format: 1080p24
Source Format: AVCHD 1080p24
Shooting Rate: 24
Video Rate: 23.98
TC Format: Non-Drop
 
Bump for Monday morning :) I'm shooting all day but I'll be around to discuss. Would like to start my upres tomorrow. any help is greatly appreciated
 
I would definitely not assume the network needs 29.97- many routinely transmit 24p. Find out your deliverables first and plan accordingly. 1080/24p is the best format to shoot for and finish when you're not sure where it's heading because it's the easiest and least painful to convert to just about any other format. Which is why most TV shows and movies are finished with a 1080/24p master. I'd not use the GH1 PAL for anything sync sound as it will require a slowdown to sync up.

-Noah
 
Just received the specs:

FRAME RATE
Frame rate shall be 29.97 frames or 59.94 fields per second. Programs recorded frame rates such as 24p shall be converted to 29.97 fps prior to delivery.

FORMAT
1125 Line / 59.94 Hz signal shall consist of 1920 x 1080 interlaced video conforming to SMPTE 274M and SMPTE 260M standards. All materials shall be produced using current industry standards and meet FCC regulations.
 
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Ugh! Poor you!

If I read you correct and one camera was shooting 30p, I'd suggest 60i... 24p and 30p are an ugly mix either way, 60i will give you the smoothest result for combining those. Ditto if you need to throw the 25p into the mix.

I don't think 25p should create syncing problems if its properly treated as 25p... the audio is still 48k. If trying to conform 25 to another framerate, it will be a sync problem, but if using it AS 25p it should be OK.
 
ullanta said:
Ugh! Poor you!
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Thanks for your sympathy. It's appreciated. A Deluxe editor here in NYC told me I might need to prepare myself for dealing with black frame removal. Oh boy! :(

ullanta said:
If I read you correct and one camera was shooting 30p, I'd suggest 60i... 24p and 30p are an ugly mix either way, 60i will give you the smoothest result for combining those. Ditto if you need to throw the 25p into the mix.
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Would my next step be to ingest the content and conform it to 60i? Or dump the different content types into a 60i sequence?
 
I'd avoid "conforming" at all costs! Confirming iften involves reinterpreting the franerate rather than converting it… that is, conforming 25p to 24p will show the same frames at a slower rate… this WILL give you sync headaches. Either use compressor to or some other software to convert the footage before, or use a 60i timeline and let your NLE sort it out. The latter may require lots of rendering… but give it a try?
 
How were you editing the proxies? What kinda timeline? Any sync problems? My intuition is that the proxies would have the same framerates as originals, and if the nle handled them well, it will handle the full-res files just the same…
 
ullanta said:
How were you editing the proxies? What kinda timeline? Any sync problems? My intuition is that the proxies would have the same framerates as originals, and if the nle handled them well, it will handle the full-res files just the same…
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Proxy files worked fine running in a 1080p30 timeline at 29.97. I've upres'd a couple songs and played around with timeline options and it appears 1080p30 or 1080i60 work OK. but I am seeing scan lines in some of the footage at about every 4 four frames and they last for about two frames. It only appears on my broadcast monitor (Panasonic BT-LH1700W) and not on my computer monitor.

scanLines.jpg
 
Jonathan_Healey said:
FRAME RATE
Frame rate shall be 29.97 frames or 59.94 fields per second. Programs recorded frame rates such as 24p shall be converted to 29.97 fps prior to delivery.

FORMAT
1125 Line / 59.94 Hz signal shall consist of 1920 x 1080 interlaced video conforming to SMPTE 274M and SMPTE 260M standards. All materials shall be produced using current industry standards and meet FCC regulations.
Click to expand...

They want 1080i60 as the deliverable, so master in 24p and export it in a 60i container and you'll be good.
 
Gary Huff said:
They want 1080i60 as the deliverable, so master in 24p and export it in a 60i container and you'll be good.
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What is the workflow for this? Are there settings I need to be mindful of in Log and Trasnfer? How 'bout Timeline settings? Any conversions with Compressor?
 
I would Log and Transfer all the clips in as they were shot, then set up a 24p timeline. Just export a ProRes master at 24p and then use Compressor to put it in the video format/container of choice and add the pulldown to implant the 24p master into a 1080i60 output file.
 
Sorry, but Gary's advice is super-counterintuitive to me. They want 60i, why make so much of your material go through a double conversion, picking up more artifacts and tearing? Converting non 24p material to 24p, then to 60i, will degrade it for no reason. 30p to 24p is REALLY UGLY. Going straight to 60i will give the cleanest result, with the least image degradation.
 
ullanta's right if those HVX's were shooting 24p/30p/60i and not 24pa. If you shot 24pa on those HVX's, then the breakdown is this:

HVX Cameras: 24p

GH1: 30p

GH1: 24p

GH1 (PAL): 25p

If we count the GH1 (PAL) as being 24p (close enough that it can be converted rather easily), then we have at least 4 cameras (depending on how many HVXs you had) shooting 24p compared to 1 camera shooting 30p. In my experience, it's best to convert to the most common frame rate and then go from there, especially since you will be delivering 60i, and can embed a 24p signal into it using pulldown.

Why the difference between 24p and 24pa? On the HVX, 1080i 24p is essentially a 24p look in 60i, so you'd have to use Cinema Tools to pull that 24p out of it and it's not as easy as 24pa. I don't want to say that 24pa is more "true" 24p, but that's the way it seems to me in my (limited) experience with that shooting format. However, if you shot 24pa, then a simple Log and Transfer process will give you 1080p24 QuickTimes for use in Final Cut, and everything flows from there.
 
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