Need help deciding what audio recorder to purchase.

Gain staging is the most important signal-related step in getting good audio. First, mic placement. Then, gain.

There are established production standards for audio. Generally your "average level" is recommended -20dBFS with peaks around -12dBFS. To some people, used to trying to "fill up" the meters, this seems low. It's also partly the fault of most metering which is peak metering against full-scale digital when we should be metering VU+peaks (sometimes called PPM depending on the manufacturer - but there is a little more to it than that - as usual.)

I like to say this about gain:

Lower is better. Seeing all sorts of good-intentioned folk arguing about recording quality of low-end field recorders for HDSLR use makes it plainly obvious. Keep the gain low, kiss the -12dBFS mark rarely and you’ll be set. In the last few weeks I’ve have the chance to try both the Olympus LS-11 and the Zoom H4n and both can make perfectly acceptable recordings if you keep the gain values real. And by real, I mean low.

It’s hard to imagine at first if you’re used to the fighting with the meters, but if you’re not a soundie (new word), think of the audio dynamic range much like the available dynamic range of an image. You wouldn’t try to constantly fit everything into the upper 10% of the imager’s range; you’d be too close to crushing highlights and clipping important information away, not to mention poisoning the blacks with noise. So why are you scared about recording sound at -40dBFS or even -50dBFS? There are plenty of great dark images.

Also, I’ve found that recording too hot, even on some of the best equipment, can result in “crispy, crunchy” (but not delicious) audio even if those systems aren’t prone to a lot of hiss or self-noise at high gain levels.

Digital audio metering is partly at fault. When the theoretical dynamic range of 24bit audio is 144dB, and the real-world useable dynamic range of many recorders is closer to about 96dB (around the 16bit limit), there’s no reason to record dialog (or much of anything else for that matter) much hotter than peaks at -12dBFS. I Try to keep the average level around 0VU if the reference level is -20dBFS
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I'm sorry for quoting from myself - it's vain. I took it from a post I wrote about gain.

Getting a grasp on the a few basic concepts is key. But there are only a few of them and once you have them you're set. I try to draw as many comparisons between camera and sound as I can to illustrate the point.

Your question about ISO vs. Gain is a great place to start.
 
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Can anyone explain why a device like the H4n would not have independent level controls? I can not imagine why and I never even thought to ask or look for that as I have never seen a "Stereo" device that does not allow for independent control.
 
kgimedia said:
Can anyone explain why a device like the H4n would not have independent level controls? I can not imagine why and I never even thought to ask or look for that as I have never seen a "Stereo" device that does not allow for independent control.
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It can only be to save money. I can't think of any other possible reason. Especially since the whole device is controlled digitally, it's not like it would need any more physical buttons to do it.

The input is a ganged stereo input. There are plenty of stereo inputs on mixers that don't allow for independent level control, but I do believe this particular choice on the H4n was unwise. It's probably the biggest reason to go for a DR-100 if you're looking for a device with this form factor.
 
Having used the fostex, it has a bit more gain in the pre-amps with a little less noise.

Your understanding of gain is very close. And like cameras, the better the amplifiers and sensors, the more iso can be cranked without raising the noise too high.

Preamps behave the same way. Better pre-amps are typically more quiet and more pleasant sounding. You do reach a point where the self-noise of the microphone becomes more of a problem than pre-amp noise.

I currently use the Tascam DR-100 mostly with a Sennheiser ME-80 shotgun and G3 wireless. With the ME-80, I have to crank the gain all the way to capture soft-spoken actors at an appropriate level. Thu my in-hears running thru the Tascam headphone amp, I can hear quite a bit of hiss. But when played back thru my post system on Event TR-6s, the dialog is very usuable and the little noise is easily covered by tone.

rundavids said:
Thanks for more informative replies guys. You are totally right about plural eyes. It's a must. Another question to everyone. What does the fostex fr2le have over the tascam dr100?

I'm also very new to audio and I heard that the gain is like iso on a camera? The higher the gain, the more sensitive it is to sound, but also drawback would be "other" additional unwanted noise added to it just like when raised iso on camera images become noisy. Is that right?
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Dialing Wand,

I can't quite figure out what you mean by "proper broadcast files"?? I use the DR-100 and the files seem fine to me.....Very basic note keeping is all that is required....I mean why does that matter if the cam files don't match. When you are on set, is every sound take going to match the camera takes sequentially? Meta data is useful, but it revolves more around a procedure, that numbering from midnight.

What exactly makes the DR-100 produce less than proper broadcast files compared to say a H4n?

Time of day time code? Huh?

Phantom powered mics do just fine on the DR-100. Dynamic, not so much without a mixer. A good mixer is always nice, but not essential for the DR100.

Plural Eyes might offer some features, but you don't really need it to synch.

Grant
 
ggrantly. Oh the files are perfect wav files.

They just aren't "Broadcast Wave Files." Wikipedia explains here: Broadcast Wave Format

BWF simply includes metadata that provides extra information in the header of a wave file (so the information provided with the file, not the audio data in it) to help with syncronization, and file interchange. As a quick note, you are leaving out the "wave" in "Broadcast Wave Files" a second time.

It has nothing to do with the quality of files at all. It certainly doesn't mean the H4n is better in any way. I'm sorry if I mislead you there.

It also doesn't mean the DR-100 can't produce files for broadcast. Broadcast Wave is just an extension of the Wave format. Nothing to do with quality. At all.

I was just surprised that this was not included on the DR-100 since I use broadcast wave meta data to help conform audio clips that are going to be sent to an editor. BWF metadata can be added later based on your own log notes.

Sorry for the confusion and for continuing to drag this off topic. We can start a new thread if you want to discuss it a bit.

UPDATE: I should stop using the word "proper" me thinks.
 
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ggrantly said:
Plural Eyes might offer some features, but you don't really need it to synch.
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This is true.

But...

I work on projects that often come in with 200-300 clips or more. Syncing to clap or slate could take hours for that many clips. With Plural Eyes I can set even a laptop with FCP to process clips and move onto other things on a workstation. It's been a huge time and headache saver.

Very few people I know are using any kind of timecode gear these days with their DSLRs or even their HVX/HPX setups. I understand though. It's expensive!

Even if they were using AUX timecode (timecode as audio), a simple ACC-501 controller and Lockit combo costs about $2K and even then you need a $250 piece of software to convert AUX timecode for most NLEs to use that audio timecode.

When Plural Eyes (or hopefully other competing software in the future) can do it for less than the 1/8th the cost of single timecode controller and save so much time in the process... well why not. For me it was a value proposition. $150 for the software, to save what ends up being days and days of work over the course of a year. It may not be so clear for others.

I still think clap or slate at both ends of a take/clip is the best kind of backup for double system sound sync issues.
 
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You may have seen my thread above (Experienced User Opinions Needed and Appreciated!), and C2V I would love if you could weigh in on that, but I'm going to be shooting a wedding in a few weeks. I would like to pick up some separate audio recorder like the ones mentioned in this thread. I'm going to be using a dvx-100 and a regular consumer level sony handycam. I would like to get a shotgun / boom mic kit after the wedding for my small, narrative video projects. This was suggested to me:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/con...&AID=10655283&PID=3740040&is=REG&A=details&Q=

So I should get the Tascam and the above package?

This was also suggested:

http://www.dvcreators.net/dvcreator-location-sound-package-1/

Would it be better to use the H4N with this? Does it matter?

With that in mind, which package would be a good start for me? And which separate audio recorder should I pair it with?

Budget is a big concern but I will be buying stuff as I go along.
 
Wow. Thanks for all this information guys. So much to learn.
Off topic a bit. What shotgun mic would you guys recommend that is around 400 or less and has the quality of the rode ntg2 or better?
 
Buy a used NTG-3. I see them often between ebay and this forum marketplace. Swear someone had one for $450 just a day ago here.

Or get the Oktava MK-012 full set. I bought from the Sound Room with Facebook discount at $315. I really like its sound. Came with all the capsules, but that Oktava does not have a super cardioid capsule common for shotguns.
 
photonashville said:
...but that Oktava does not have a super cardioid capsule common for shotguns.
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I've seen this a few times recently and it needs to be stated that 'shotgun' is not a synonym of 'super-cardioid'. A shotgun mic is a mic element (generally with hyper- or super-cardioid response) mated with an interference tube to give more off-axis rejection.

See this book for more information than you ever wanted on mic design. Shotguns are covered on page 55 or 56 of the PDF.
 
So rundavids got a bit of an answer, but what should I be looking at? See my post on the bottom of page three. Would I be looking at something similar or would it be better to get the NTG-2 for my purposes?
 
Two words: Sound guy.

rundavids said:
Hi guys, I'm planning on shooting a small film and I need an external audio recorder. I'm looking at a Zoom H4n and Tascam dr100 so far. I'll be using the recorder with a Rode NTG2 mic. Which recorder would you guys recommend me to purchase? Thanks.
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I started with a h4n and ntg-2 but quickly had to replace them with a Sound Devices 552 mixer and NTG-3 mic. Granted, that is about $4k, but it is a KILLER sound package. The 10-year warranties and robust metal construction of the mic and mixer mean that that is a $4,000 that will keep giving you awesome sound for a decade. Seems worth it to me.
 
I have a 552 as well and love it. But 10 year warranty? The 552 manual explicitly states it has a 1 year warranty. You probably won't need it though and Sound Devices has amazing support.
 
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