Need Advice On LED Stage Lights

puredrifting

puredrifting

Major Contributor
Hi all:

For being a DP, I know next to nothing about stage lighting. Recently did a shoot where a gaffer suggested using
a set of powerful stage LED lights to cast some color wash across some black curtains. I lit talent how I wanted
to using soft light but he set up four metal DMX controllable heavy 8" stage LEDs on the floor. These lights had multiple
LED sources, I believe they were lasers because he said to avoid looking into them. Trying to achieve what he
achieved with these lights with video lights would have been difficult, if not impossible, rich dark blue and purple
washes across the bottom of my blackout pipe and drape in the background.

Can some of you who do know stage lighting chime in on what types of LED stage lighting these were? They weren't
PAR cans, they looked kind of like a Blonde but a bit smaller, they were heavy duty, an all metal housing with heat sink
fins all over them, they were controllable through four buttons on the back, they had perhaps 10-12 different LED Laser
lenses on the front of the light and they were powerful as my ambient levels were fairly bright and these threw a very nice pattern
across black pipe and drape. A pair of these would be handy for me to have in my back pocket as we keep getting non-profit
live streams that have no budget for set design so we end using using pipe and drape. This wash across the bottom of the
black pipe and drape really looked great, I just don't know which instruments could accomplish this.

Thanks for clues. This made me realize what a different world stage lighting is from video/film lighting.
 
Would it be too awkward to reach out to the gaffer and ask him? Your description sounds kind of like the Astera AX10, the much, much (much) bigger brother of the AX3’s and AX5’s that I have. The 10 has nine emitters and is 135 watts with a native 13 degree pattern, so it has some punch. It also has local controls on the back and wired and wireless DMX, but it’s real power (control) is in the app with the ART7 box. The other great thing, like all of their fixtures, they are battery powered, so no power cables to run. They are $1500 a piece, though(if you have a relationship with a dealer, you can get them for less).

1584097577_1541916.jpg
https://astera-led.com/ax10/

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1541916-REG/astera_ax10_spotmax.html
 
Thanks Run. Not awkward, he is out of the country for the holidays, sadly, in a war zone so not a good time to hit him up about gear questions.

That looks like an interesting light. I would want to pick up probably at least four of them, so $6k for these would be out of my budget,
as we often have a main talent set up and then another smaller set up in the same space but with separate cameras for our auctioneer/emcee
so having two per setup would probably do. How do you like your AX3s and 5s? How is the fan noise? Do they have a decent amount of
horsepower for doing what I am trying to achieve?

I had another client on another shoot who offered me to use a whole crate of their cheapo Chinese plastic version of these, the output was ok
not great but they seemed very fragile, if you dropped one, it would definitely shatter and the fans in them sounded like hair dryers at
full blast so useless for video. I'm looking around and Chauvet and American DJ offer all kinds of variants too but without testing them out,
hard to say if they would do what I want them to do.

Interesting that the industry calls these PARs. I guess, in a way they are, those little LEDs are kind of parabolic reflectors but they definitely aren't what I think of when I think of stage PAR cans
or my Joker 1200 HMI PAR I used to have.
 
There are three main types of LED available - and none are lasers - there are strict rules on these and are normally a single very narrow beam, and damn dangerous.

The types currently on offer are usually RGBW, plus maybe Amber and UV. Ant he white is normally 5600K, but not very good colour rendition, so tricky for facelight.

What differs is beam angle. Washes are wide and even and even with haze in the air, you see what it lands on. The opposite end are the beam lights with a very narrow, almost parallel beam. These can't zoom out as wide, so not so good for washing. You see these on the strictly/talent/voie type shows in the air. What they land on is not useful. Some can also project patterns (gobos)

The last type has a rotating disc in front of each LED cluster and looks like a bee eye - B-Eye being the usual description. As the disc rotates, the beams shift to the side, creating a neat effect as they move.

The wash light type has more clusters - so maybe 36 in concentric rings. They can wash quite smoothly in any colour. They can also in some, address each cluster separately - so not only does the beam have colour ability in the air and what it lands on, it can look interesting when seen by the camera - sort of crude animations on the front - often seen in pop videos.

Smaller versions might have less clusters 8-15 being popular - not quite so wash light, but ok at a distance. I've still got some hanging in my studio from the last project - I haven't de-rigged them, yet.

The bit about not looking into them is simply because they're VERY bright. If you need any specifics just ask - I've got stacks of them in hire stock.
 

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Even though you can use any light for a background, strip lights make the most sense for wide wash, especially for sitting on the floor. Par are the other type light that come to mind.
 
PARs are pretty much dead. CP60, CP61 and CP62 lamps getting incredibly expensive and hard to find. Their days have gone. For a while they hung on, but LEDs now have the punch, and of course the ability to thrown huge amounts off saturated light - Congo Blue L181 had less than 2% of the power converted to light - the rest went up as heat! Discharge lighting still has the maximum power and punch - but Martin and Robe discharge kit now seems to be in the 6000+ price range, and going uphill, not down. They'll not recoup their purchase cost for many hire companies, even excluding Covid finance issues.

If you get Some cheaper LEDs, then I'd suggest going with the 5+ LED cluster washes, and maybe the B-eyes as some of these on one setting can be quite an even wash, bit on others create amazing effects - but you will need a hazer if you want air effects.
This is in our studio, with pipe and drape some upturned flight cases for set
https://youtu.be/amuZ2h_hG64

This one is my son's result using two static LEDs and a bit of pretty cloth.
https://youtu.be/uHSO68EUcng
WARNING - moving heads really need a proper controller - the basic minimum would be an Avo or Chamsys MagicQ with a DMX dongle costing around £70 and free software. Be aware that manual operation of these things is a total pain in the rear, and so limiting. A control is really a necessity.
 
Def not interested in moving lights, these would mainly serve for BG wash or to occasionally rake across drapes. I also have no issues with buying some of these used as they will mainly
be accent lights used for BGs, never to light talent, often used for deep blues, purples, reds or gold, just to balance out a normally lit scene, usually with two hosts and a 65" monitor in
between them so these are used in the wings, on the ground or down low.
 
ahalpert said:
Where's the shot of the gaffer's set-up, pure? I'd like to see the effect :)
Click to expand...

This was for a telethon, I'll have to hunt down our recording and grab some stills from the broadcast sometime but here are some snaps
our prompter operator took of the light in question and their effect on the setup.

BG Light V1.jpg
BG Light Effect V1.jpg
 
puredrifting said:
Thanks Run. Not awkward, he is out of the country for the holidays, sadly, in a war zone so not a good time to hit him up about gear questions.

That looks like an interesting light. I would want to pick up probably at least four of them, so $6k for these would be out of my budget,
as we often have a main talent set up and then another smaller set up in the same space but with separate cameras for our auctioneer/emcee
so having two per setup would probably do. How do you like your AX3s and 5s? How is the fan noise? Do they have a decent amount of
horsepower for doing what I am trying to achieve?

I had another client on another shoot who offered me to use a whole crate of their cheapo Chinese plastic version of these, the output was ok
not great but they seemed very fragile, if you dropped one, it would definitely shatter and the fans in them sounded like hair dryers at
full blast so useless for video. I'm looking around and Chauvet and American DJ offer all kinds of variants too but without testing them out,
hard to say if they would do what I want them to do.

Interesting that the industry calls these PARs. I guess, in a way they are, those little LEDs are kind of parabolic reflectors but they definitely aren't what I think of when I think of stage PAR cans
or my Joker 1200 HMI PAR I used to have.
Click to expand...

Hey Dan. I love them. Being able to place them basically wherever you want without having to string power is very liberating and gives you options. The AX3's are RGBW and the AX5's are RGBAW, like the other larger units(AX7 & AX10). They are high-end and built for stage and TV/Film, so color rendering is great and they're built like tanks. They also have +/- green adjustment and adjustable frequency(in frequency and frame rates), so no issues with flicker on camera. Cooling is passive, so no fan noise.

The 3's are 15 watts and great in a lot of controlled spaces(not a ton of ambient to compete with). The 5's are 45 watts(3 emitters) and have more punch. I'd imagine in your scenarios that you described, they'd probably have more than enough. I used the AX3's earlier this year mixed in with some existing stage lighting on black drape on a stage we were doing a multi-cam on. They only had a few up-lights, so we had to bring mine out at the last minute and the worked perfectly and matched the larger units that were already there. Sadly, I had JUST gotten the AX5's and left them at home, because I thought we were just providing keys and hairs and there would be plenty of existing stage lighting there. And that's why I'm usually overpacked, because I don't like getting caught out like that...

https://youtu.be/qO8WPR-SwTo

https://youtu.be/9nmXhabMp8g

https://youtu.be/9nmXhabMp8g

https://www.youtube.com/user/AsteraLED

The videos are kinda old and these are some pretty elaborate set-ups, but you can get the idea of what the fixtures are capable of. They're like most of the equipment I own, I'm the weakest link in the chain.

*The AX5's are on-sale right now for $625(!). That's $150 off list and at least $100-$125 off a "good" price.*
 
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Quick screen shot. The 15 watt single LED AX3's mixed in with the existing stage washes. I don't remember if we ended up using all 8 of the AX3's or not, but we did have more of my lights than the stage lights.

IMG_4093 2.jpg
 
Thanks Run, very helpful.
Abe, have not looked at those yet, I will check them out too.
Wish I knew what kind the gaffer used on my shoot, they were
old school feeling, all metal but had an LED readout on the back
and they were pretty powerful.
 
While I have not kept up on the latest LED offerings for stage use, I will add that the successful events I have worked that were intended for broadcast using LED lights had gaffers using DMX controllers.
The issue was that while the lighting wash might have looked good to the eye in the room, the chroma levels needed to be adjusted to be viewed properly for broadcast.
 
The LED battens are pretty useful, but come in two versions. One mixes up the RGB LEDs, the other has them in blocks - often 9x9.
This is a few them we have attached to mic stands - these are the ones with the block versions.

You can buy static LED 'pars' fro silly money and they do have manual controls on the back, and usually a flashy auto mode, often with sound to light. Great too throw a little light around. The cheap ones are not very wide. Not sure if this will matter, but In pre-covid days, our LED hire stock was very busy. Realistically, controllers are pretty important for anything other than ultra basic.

Worth keeping in mind that there are about ten real branded lighting manufacturers that are well known, but hundreds of Chinese brands that mean little - however, their performance is usually really good, and when they get wrecked (usually through dropping) we just put them in a pile for spares use. You can buy an LED par for the same price as an old fashioned tungsten CP62!

If I get a chance I'll pull a cheap one out and uplight a black cloth with it so you can see the effect.

My view is that lots of cheap ones are far more useful than a few expensive ones. You can do so much more with up and down lights and a hazer!
 
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Here's a dirt cheap, plastic cased, Chinese uplighter with RGBW LEDs - stand alone, different colours and effects by prodding a few buttons. They're less than £20 from china each if you buy a few. The quality control is poor of course, one of the dozen I had rattled - they'd dropped a screw inside when assembling them, and just used another! The captive mains cable also falls out of the glad if you yank the cable, but for this kind of use, buying a cast chassis version would take too long for a return on the investment. Six months later, I am down to 10. As I said less than the old fashioned lamps and my gel orders last year were zero. For uplighting they're super things with black drapes. Moving head versions are correspondingly cheap too. Less than £150 each, and you can do so much with them. The only thing about the movers is the fan noise!
 
paulears said:
Here's a dirt cheap, plastic cased, Chinese uplighter with RGBW LEDs - stand alone, different colours and effects by prodding a few buttons. They're less than £20 from china each if you buy a few. The quality control is poor of course, one of the dozen I had rattled - they'd dropped a screw inside when assembling them, and just used another! The captive mains cable also falls out of the glad if you yank the cable, but for this kind of use, buying a cast chassis version would take too long for a return on the investment. Six months later, I am down to 10. As I said less than the old fashioned lamps and my gel orders last year were zero. For uplighting they're super things with black drapes. Moving head versions are correspondingly cheap too. Less than £150 each, and you can do so much with them. The only thing about the movers is the fan noise!
Click to expand...

Too funny, those are the exact same Chinese lights that one of my clients offered for me to use on a recent shoot, they had a whole bag of them.
I booted up a few of them and the fans were as loud as a blow dryer, so therefore useless to me as they would have been within 10-15' of
two talent. Don't drop those, they seemed extremely fragile as well. That's the Chinese stuff that just makes me laugh.
 
David W. Jones said:
While I have not kept up on the latest LED offerings for stage use, I will add that the successful events I have worked that were intended for broadcast using LED lights had gaffers using DMX controllers.
The issue was that while the lighting wash might have looked good to the eye in the room, the chroma levels needed to be adjusted to be viewed properly for broadcast.
Click to expand...

This was my thoughts as well. I've done a few events with these type of lights being used as a violet wash on the background in order to (I assume) make people's skin tones pop. Both the Canon and Sony cameras were completely misinterpreting the colors. The Canon saw purple and the Sony saw a deep blue. It was a mess.
 
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