Need advice on how to record clean audio from the MK012

A

Andrew Lewis

Member
I'd like to say hi first; I'm excited to see that this forum isn't just about cameras!

Hopefully somebody can give me some advice. I'm interested in shooting a short film, and over the last month I've gathered up some of the necessaries to start experimenting. It's nothing serious, just a little 5-10 minute short with some friends, mostly to learn and gain some experience.

I'm pretty comfortable with everything but the sound aspect. Right now, my setup for audio includes an Oktava MK012 and a Tascam DR100 along with boom pole / dead cat and other support items. I purchased everything all together from the same person for a really good price, but now am concerned whether I did the right thing.

When doing my own tests, I've found that the high gain on the DR100 is useless as it makes a harsh hissing sound. I suspect by what I've read on this forum that it's because the preamps inside are kind of crap, and don't serve the MK012 well, especially for dialog. It seems the recommended solution is to go out to a mixer with better preamps and then to the recorder?

My budget is kind of tight, and I'd like to stay under $400 if possible. If I want to get clear audio without gain noise on high, what's the best route to take? Sell the DR100 and get a new recorder (everyone seems to recommend the FR2-LE around here), or get a preamp like a juicedlink paired with the DR100 recorder? I've also heard about a mod which replaces the preamps with higher quality ones and possibly reducing gain noise.

Thanks for any advice!
 
There are always complaints about the economy recorders and gain, but if you are careful, it should work ok. The first question is how you are listening to your hissing audio, is it from a computer set up to do audio, or from the headphones plugged into the dr100? If you are judging from the dr100 and headphones, don't. Also, your mic needs to be close to the talent, like 18" close, or your audio will deteriorate. The dr and your oktava can do the job, but practice will be essential.

Grant
 
I know it's a little more than your price range but I have been using a dr100 with a mix pre-d in front and it sounds great ...
 
BTW, a mixer will help in a variety of ways. If you can afford it, a mixpre or mixpre-d is the best two channel unit available. A used mixpre might be fairly close to $400. Are you recording to a dslr or a real video cam? If it is a video cam with phantom powered xlr inputs, I would record to that instead.

If you are recording to a dslr, you are now finding out why video cams have some advantages.

Grant
 
One of the first thoughts that came to mind is I'm wondering why you have to run the gain up so high that noise is a factor. Where are you positioning the mic in relation to the talent? For typical dialog recording the Oktava should be about 18 inches away from and pointed directly at the speaker's mouth.
 
Your Oktava MK012 requires more gain compared to the equivalent Rode or Audio-Technica mic, which can be a problem when using low cost recorders that have a limited amount of clean gain. This mic is also very sensitive to handling noise, so you may want to invest in a Rycote INV-7 shock-mount ( about $60 ), which can be used with just about any brand of "pencil" mic.

While the Tascam DR-100 is a very good low cost recorder, it gets very noisy when the mic gain is set to HIGH, so I don't consider the HIGH setting to be usable for low noise recording. ( otherwise the DR-100 is a great little beastie )

Since you've got a limited budget, I would first try recording with your Oktava mic about 18 inches from the person speaking and set the DR-100 mic gain to MEDIUM, it won't sound very loud in your headphones, but the audio should be clean. Then take your recording into your audio editor and try applying 10 - 20 dB of volume to your recording. See if the audio still sounds noise-free ( it should ), and see if the audio is loud enough.

If your audio isn't loud enough, you've got the choice of either replacing the Oktava mic or buying a better mic pre-amp. Both choices are equally valid, though I would probably look at getting a better mic myself, as it will probably cost less and you really want a good mic to capture your audio.

If you go the mic route then I would look at getting an AKG CK93 ( hypercardioid : under $500 ) or the Audio Technica 4053b ( hypercardioid : $600 ), and you might be able to find the CK93 or the older AT4053a used. ( I use an AT4053a that I bought four years ago when it was selling for about $400 ) If you want a low cost mic, then I would consider a cardioid mic like the Rode NT5 ( sensitive, good sound, but can be a little bass sensitive : $220 ), or possibly the Avatone CK-1 ( supposed to be very good for a cheap mic : $150 ), or look for a used AT3031 mic. ( cardioid, great sound, low noise : $100 used, I own two of these )

If you go the pre-amp route then I would look at getting a new Sound Devices MM-1 ( under $400 ) or try and find a used Sound Devices MixPre. ( under $500 )

I don't think replacing the DR-100 with a better recorder will help much, as the DR-100 is already supplying up to 40 dB of clean gain ( using the MEDIUM gain setting ), and I'm not sure how much more clean gain a $500 - $700 recorder will bring to the table.

If you can, you may want to try renting some audio gear before you buy anything new, just to be sure you are making the right decision for you.
 
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Thanks for the advice so far. In my own tests I've positioned the mic at pretty much every distance and angle possible. At no more than a couple inches away, medium gain at 10 is still not stisfactory. You can hear it, but it's simply not loud enough for film sound. And when boosted 10-15db in audition it just doesn't sound right. Too much noise and still not loud enough.

The recommendation to get a sound devices mm-1 seems to be the best idea so far. It's in my budget and if it's going to take away the noise on high gain, then I'll go for it. Is there any other per-amp / mixer at around the same price range I should look at?

Im very intent on keeping the oktava, as it sounds amazing. I've sat and listened to many comparisons between it and mics up to $600 and above, and I like the sound for dialog the best. But now as I'm learning something about audio, I realize that to maximize its potential properly, Id need to spend thousands of dollars haha.

So, if spending 3-400 on a decent preamp will at least lower gain noise on high, that's a decent start until ive got the funds to properly invest in better equipment.
 
ggrantly said:
BTW, a mixer will help in a variety of ways. If you can afford it, a mixpre or mixpre-d is the best two channel unit available. A used mixpre might be fairly close to $400. Are you recording to a dslr or a real video cam? If it is a video cam with phantom powered xlr inputs, I would record to that instead.

If you are recording to a dslr, you are now finding out why video cams have some advantages.

Grant
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What do you mean about that? Are you saying that the MixPre would not work very well if you ran it into your DSLR? Personally, I'm going to do a separate sound system, so it wouldn't matter for my DSLR.
 
The Oktava is a great mic when properly set up.

Definitely Keep it, the SD will give you about the cleanest gain for the money, most mixers under $400 are junk and not much better than the recorders pre-amps.

Cheers.
 
iamlance said:
What do you mean about that? Are you saying that the MixPre would not work very well if you ran it into your DSLR? Personally, I'm going to do a separate sound system, so it wouldn't matter for my DSLR.
Click to expand...

This is what I plan on as well, no way would I cripple all my efforts to get clean audio by going into my DSLR. Perhaps as a template on which to sync the audio from the recorder, but that's about it.
 
iamlance said:
What do you mean about that? Are you saying that the MixPre would not work very well if you ran it into your DSLR? Personally, I'm going to do a separate sound system, so it wouldn't matter for my DSLR.
Click to expand...

Stop and re-read. What I am saying is that if you were using a real video cam, you could skip all this second audio hassle and record to cam directly. And no, I probably wouldn't record any sound to a dslr. There are some reasons to like dslr video, but audio isn't one of them. Sorry if I confused you.

Grant
 
Andrew Lewis said:
the sound devices MM-1 seems to be the best idea so far. It's in my budget and if it's going to take away the noise on high gain, then I'll go for it.
Click to expand...

The MM-1 uses the same quality pre-amp as the other Sound Devices mixers, so if you can't get good sound with this, then something else is seriously wrong. It also has a great headphone amp which will make your boom-op's job much easier.
 
TheDingo said:
The MM-1 uses the same quality pre-amp as the other Sound Devices mixers, so if you can't get good sound with this, then something else is seriously wrong. It also has a great headphone amp which will make your boom-op's job much easier.
Click to expand...

Very interesting. So in terms of just the pre-amp and gain noise handling do you think there would be an advantage with the mix-pre over the mm-1?
 
I don't get the gain issue at all. 2" from the mic and it should be hot! Can you swap the mic for anything else, just for a test - even a simple cheap dynamic would do. If, without adjusting the gain settings or levels, swapping for a dynamic suddenly produces bags of output - then the mic is faulty, or possibly the phantom power is working way below the nominal 48V.
 
paulears said:
I don't get the gain issue at all. 2" from the mic and it should be hot! Can you swap the mic for anything else, just for a test - even a simple cheap dynamic would do. If, without adjusting the gain settings or levels, swapping for a dynamic suddenly produces bags of output - then the mic is faulty, or possibly the phantom power is working way below the nominal 48V.
Click to expand...

After reading around, my issue seems to be quite a common one with my specific setup: mk012 and the dr100 when on high gain. Medium is fine, it's just simply not loud enough. High is great except for the gain noise.

Are you saying you have this same setup, and don't get a hiss or any sort of gain noise on high with the dr100 + mk012 and no mixer or extra pre-amp in between?
 
I concur with Recordingwiz "most mixers under $400 are junk and not much better than the recorders pre-amps"
y
The 012 has it's issues, (Chinese 'counterfeits', quality control issues, handling/wind noise) but many usually sound decent.
BTW, the 012 has the about the same output level and 'self noise' as a KM84, which is highly regarded by many.. in or out of the studio.
 
Andrew Lewis said:
So in terms of just the pre-amp and gain noise handling do you think there would be an advantage with the mix-pre over the mm-1?
Click to expand...

Not really. Audio wise they are both very good.

The MixPre has useful features that the MM-1 doesn't, like a LED audio meter, 1 kHz test tone which is useful when calibrating a recorder or camera, the MixPre pots are completely variable where the MM-1 has eleven steps of mic gain, the MixPre has a tape-out that is useful to connect a recorder to while you still run the main XLR outs to your camera.
 
Indeed as Dingo stated," The MixPre has useful features that the MM-1 doesn't, like a LED audio meter"
The MM1 is primarily designed for a boom op, where the 'production sound mixer' is taking care of levels.
 
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