NASA releases partially restored Apollo 11 moonwalk video.

I think that by the time a Theory has become enshrined as a Law, it's at least in part because no exceptions to it have been observed.

Although sometimes phenomena are observed that do appear to violate a Law of physics - ie black holes' evaporation - it seems as though before long it's determined how the phenomenpn may be accounted for utilizing understood Laws (in that case, Hawking Radiation).

Of course, it's possible that sometimes observed phenomena will require revision of a Law, or our understanding of its nature. I guess.

*edit* off the top of my head I suppose that QUIP (the Quantum Inseparability Principle) appears to violate the C-limit on transfer of information across a distance. It's late enough at night that I can't recall what if anything accounts for that (quantum entanglement...? I'm going to bed).
 
Wow big topic shifts...

Concerning conspiracy theories -

I've always been a strong believer in the moon landing, because ever since I've heard about conspiracy theories and the "facts", I've heard very concrete facts debunking it.

I remember reading an interview with a conspiracy theorist who wrote a book about it, and his facts I could prove wrong with my simple high school education at the time.

The biggest one that got me was that he claimed the radiation on the moon would have killed the astronauts and destroyed the film, and to prove this fact he went to a buddy of his that was a photographer and asked "would loads of radiation destroy a photograph?" and the photographer said "yes" and this was the only expert that he consulted regarding this "fact"

The real facts are that the highest level of radiation when going to the moon happens to be when leaving orbit of earth. Apparently it's as much radiation as getting a few x-rays. The radiation on the moon was much less. I knew this just from basic education. But did he bother to consult a scientist about this? No. He heard 'radiation'... and that's it that's all.

Fact is, conspiracies are seen as being silly and completely false because they back-up their claims with partial truths, never getting all the facts, and possibly dismissing some because it disproves their own theories.

And yes, Mythbusters did a good job at debunking a lot of the major myths, especially the moon walking one which made it a done deal for me. No way to mimic that walk unless your in lesser gravity... not even the "helium balloon" trick worked as well.

Concerning future explorations -

I really hope to see us reach Mars in our life time. I remember a while back the date was 2011, and now we're only planning to go to the moon in, what, 2020 as a stepping stone towards mars? *sigh*

Then again, what should I expect? It's far far far easier to reach the moon than Mars. Mars is astronomically further away, the crew would have to live there for up to a year, and because of this the cost would go through the roof, can't imagine how much more money than a mission to the moon it would cost.

The reason we went to the moon was never about scientific discovery, it's always been about power. It was a race, the space race. This is why the funding was unlimited, this is why it took no time to get there. That's why we haven't been back since. That's why it'll take us a while to get missions going again. The US is already the first (and only) nation to reach the Moon, and the space race is over. Now it's all about scientific discovery and advancement. So it will be slow...

Correct me if I'm wrong.
 
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It's just the stuff that despair is made of, to even see the Apollo program described as something to be believed in, even by people who...believe in it.

Yeah, conspiracy theories have been recognized as something whose appeal to any given person is usually in inverse proportion to that person's degree of education.

Fact is, conspiracies are seen as being silly and completely false because they back-up their claims with partial truths, never getting all the facts, and possibly dismissing some because it disproves their own theories.
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Alas this goes well beyond, say, moon-landing hoax theories - and they're not necessarily always recognized for what they are. There are very successful social and political commentators with dedicated followings who operate on precisely the same principles. There are whole belief-systems with millions of adherents, that function via similar mechanisms. Not that that's anything particularly new.

Once a profit motive is identified for returning to the moon, it will happen in a serious way, Until then manned lunar travel doesn't appear to be more than nationalistic grandstanding.
 
Whether one agrees with space exploration as a priority or not... In general, seems to me that dollars invested in NASA programs have a very good ROI. Far more dollars go back into the economy via jobs, and technologies and products that end up in the marketplace, etc. Everything from DHA and ARA (obtained naturally from the mother's teet) which is now included in many baby formulas and food products, to advances in medicine, etc, etc, etc... To me, the profit motive is already there in a pretty big way, if that's what we're waiting for :)

As an investor, NASA would probably be one of the first places I would put my money if choosing from a list of government funded programs beyond those considered the essentials.

Out of a $2.4 trillion budget, less than 0.8% is spent on the entire space program! That's less than 1 penny for every dollar spent. The average American spends more of their budget on their cable bill, eating out or entertainment than this yet the benefits of space flight are remarkable. It has been conservatively estimated by U.S. space experts that for every dollar the U.S. spends on R and D in the space program, it receives $7 back in the form of corporate and personal income taxes from increased jobs and economic growth. Besides the obvious jobs created in the aerospace industry, thousands more are created by many other companies applying NASA technology in nonspace related areas that affect us daily...
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http://www.thespaceplace.com/nasa/spinoffs.html

Anyways, regardless of whether they end up on the moon or on a sound stage, the direct, and indirect benefits that can come from funding of the various nasa programs makes it seem like a no-brainer to me...

As to the dubbing over of the tape... Who knows... Definitely silly. Though two small comments. One being that often times folks who live in the fine detail of things often forget the *obvious* things. Also, the moon landing was broadcast 'round the world. I imagine to non-filmmakers maintaining any kind of master wasn't really *common sense* to them. Perhaps, there was an assumption that it wasn't necessary being that it had already been broadcast, and recorded all over the world. NASA programs tend to be ambitious, and forward looking (especially during the race to the moon). Probably not a mindset conducive to "archival" of the past... Just throwing it out there anyways :)

later,
Jason
 
Sad Max said:
Yeah, conspiracy theories have been recognized as something whose appeal to any given person is usually in inverse proportion to that person's degree of education.
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Logical debate is all that matters... no matter the subject. Most people avoid logical arguments that don't support their beliefs... regardless of their level of education... which often has little to do with their ability to process logic. :cheesy:
 
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Jon Starr said:
Concerning future explorations -

...[snip]...

Then again, what should I expect? It's far far far easier to reach the moon than Mars. Mars is astronomically further away, the crew would have to live there for up to a year, and because of this the cost would go through the roof, can't imagine how much more money than a mission to the moon it would cost.
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Most anyone you'd talk to on the street, would suggest all we have to do is send a rocket that way, land them then have them come back. The reality is quite a bit different. One way to think about this concerns a formula one racer existing in a time-frame around the 1800's.

If we'd had an actual formula one racer at that time, and wanted to drive it from New York to where Santa Monica is today, we would have had to overcome several problems. To get there, we'd have had to build an infrastructure first. Hi-ways, fuel stations that stocked tires, specialized oil, very specialized tools to work on the vehicle (including the metal-works to support the manufacture of those tools), food stops, rest stops, medical care, ... the list is very long, and each area has it's own support requirements to exist. All of the surface travel amenities you take for granted today. A whole infrastructure, and multiple unrelated infrastructures to support the support infrastructures.

It's pretty much how mankind has developed and colonized every place he's set foot on. The "vision" that's been mandated to NASA is not just to set foot. It's to live on Mars as an outpost with the express purpose to grow the outpost larger and support more people (as an indefinite self-sustainable stay). So, a first logical course of action could be, to build up the manufacturing base to create a support infrastructure.

From what I've seen and heard, this is exactly what's being done. The general public though, would probably not understand why some of the technologies NASA is currently working on, requesting companies and scientific organizations to study, and contracts that are being filed to learn how to build things, are being done. As a guess, most of these things, possibly 90% or more wouldn't seem to have anything to do with lobbing a rocket to Mars, and would probably look like a waste of money.

It's all logistics right now. With most of the logistics being "how to get the American manufacturing base created (and that of other countries), trained and funded" first - before we can even determine what has to be built (turns out, that discoveries in material sciences, engineering, cosmology and physics are happening very rapidly right now, and if history provides any perspective, the trend will only accelerate - if we build now using our current technology-base, it will cost more than the GDP of all countries on Earth - if we build the infrastructure that lets us learn what we need to know first - it can make all countries prosper, and end up being cheap enough for a single country to take that leap by itself).

Of course, this is just an opinion.
 
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Mark Harris said:
the phrasing of this sentence is why I like you so much...
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Thanks.

MattinSTL said:
Logical debate is all that matters... no matter the subject. Most people avoid logical arguments that don't support their beliefs... regardless of their level of education... which often has little to do with their ability to process logic. :cheesy:
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Logic is only an instrument: starting from flawed premises, perfectly valid logical reasoning will yield flawed conclusions. So it's not necessarily that people evade logical reasoning so much as that they may proceed logically from a false premise (and frequently take great pride, in doing so). Education can be influential because the scope and quality of your knowledge-base supports your ability to construct rational premises which may be logically validated.

Most of the time it's probably more about staying in a comfort-zone maintained by a given set of perceptions, with all the usual threat-response mechanisms coming into play if that zone appears to be threatened.
 
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How did I know this thread would devolve into conspiracy theories...The nail in the coffin for me in that Mythbusters episode was when they did the laser mirror test. It would not be possible to bounce a laser off the moon if the astronauts didn't place that mirror precisely where it is. I suppose an unmanned craft could have done it, but why go to all that length just to reinforce a lie...My favorite response is from one of the astronauts, who simply said if we did fake it, why did we do it so many times?
 
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