Naiant lav with Tascam DR-40: Sound samples, mini-review, and editing help

L

linuxizer

Member
Hi sound gurus,

New here and to the world of sound. I'm an academic and fell down the rabbit hole when planning to record (audio + video) a conference talk I'm giving in a few months. Have read just about every article on transom.org as well as the stickies here plus the first, oh, 37 pages of threads in the audio forum here. Still don't feel like I know very much.

Wanted to first throw out a little info and sound samples of the Naiant lavalier mic, since there was little info when I was searching last week. As a mic test, this is of course limited by the non-professional quality of my DR-40's pre-amps, but I don't have access to anything better (well, I have an E-MU 0202 I could buy a phantom power box for if you think that would be notably better for testing).

First, an e-mail exchange with Naiant, who answered my questions within a few hours of asking:

Me:
I'm interested in buying a XLR phantom-powered omni lav for use with my Tascam DR-40 to record talks I'm giving. I've heard good things about Naiant's other mics, and rumors of a "high-output" version of the X-X. Does this still exist? My concern is that the pre-amps in the DR-40 are not terribly good, and so a mic with higher output would be preferred.

Would love to know your thoughts on this, and if a high-output version is not available, whether the X-X would be high enough output to have acceptable noise floors given the DR-40's unfortunate tendencies.
Click to expand...

Their reply:
The X-X can be customized for higher sensitivity, but its standard sensitivity is -30dBV/Pa, with a noise floor of -101dBA, which should be adequate for nearly any recorder.

Regards,
Jon
Click to expand...

With that somewhat reassuring reply, I went and bought one. To my ear, it's about what I wanted: noisier than the internal mic (but I don't know if that's the DR-40 or the lav contributing, or both), but produces reasonably crisp audio. I'll also note that it has a Neutrik XLR jack on it, which produces a very satisfying mechanical connection to the Tascam (the cheap dual-XLR kit on Amazon had me scared because everyone noted the XLR didn't fit right). I kind of like what I believe is the proximity effect, in that it makes my voice sound more like I hear it in my head. Maybe some day I'll borrow an OST or Tram or Countryman to test it and be blown away, but I suspect my next upgrade (which will be years off, budgetarialy speaking) will be a SD MP-1/MM-1 rather than a better mic, because even on the internal mic the pre-amp noise bugs me. If that's crazy and I should re-prioritize the mic over the pre-amp, that advice would be welcome as well.

Here are the recordings (each has a download link for 24bit PCM version):
https://soundcloud.com/gsk3/sets/test-of-naiant-lavalier-mic-with-tascam-dr-40-recorder

Editing/recording help:
I have many questions about how to improve my recording and editing skills.

Recording
This was recorded under a down comforter inside in an urban environment in the evening. So there are some background noises. There are also handling noises (I don't have a lav clip or windscreen yet, that's on its way) and mouth noises. Suggestions for reducing any of these would be most welcome. Also, am I recording at a high enough level? When I didn't run the compressor, I had to boost the lav track by quite a bit (10dB) to get the peaks to sit at -3dB (which I assume is -3dBFS).

Editing
Two tracks are straight out-of-recorder. I applied moderate editing to one track in Audacity. First I ran a 100Hz high-pass filter through the equalizer. I compressed with the settings: Threshold -12dB, Noise Floor -40dB, Ratio 1.5:1, Attack Time 0.2sec, Decay Time 1.0sec. Then I ran Audacity's noise removal algorithm, calibrating it on the empty section that starts at around 10 seconds.

Frankly, if the results don't get any better from here, I'd be happy with that. This still sounds dramatically better than most conference audio tracks I've heard, and I've spent a total of $148 ($100AR for the DR-40, $44 for the Naiant, $4 for a lapel clip). But given that I hear clear areas for improvement, and given that a conference stage is not the pristine recording environment that my bed is, and given that I find this stuff fascinating and would love to learn more, if anyone has the time to take a listen and offer suggestions on technique I'd greatly appreciate it.

Thanks in advance.
 
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The Naiant mic should work OK for your application, though a $40 mic makes me skeptical of sound and/or build quality, though I do not think a higher end mic would make a night/day sound difference. -30dBV/Pa isn't bad for a lav. As for mouth noise, clicking and such, some VO artists eat an apple (Granny Smith usually) prior to speaking... unfortunately any improvement is usually short-term.
You don't need a dual-XLR... the Tascam can record a single-channel mono track.. which is what you want anyway; as a bonus, it's half the file size of a dual-mono track (PCM <.wav> file) I wouldn't use a compressor (and certainly not AGC) when recording, just a peak limiter. Generally a sample rate of 44.1kHz (or 48k; audio for video) is sufficient for spoken word and 24 bits is recommended if your recording low levels.. BTW, what is the final delivery format going to be?
Your post (comp/EQ, ect.) settings depend on the program material, so if it sounds good to you, so be it.
 
Thanks for the comments.

Rick R said:
The Naiant mic should work OK for your application, though a $40 mic makes me skeptical of sound and/or build quality, though I do not think a higher end mic would make a night/day sound difference.
Click to expand...

My thinking was that until I had better pre-amps it probably wasn't worth sinking >$100 into a mic. Would love to test this theory with side-by-side testing of a better lav though.

-30dBV/Pa isn't bad for a lav. As for mouth noise, clicking and such, some VO artists eat an apple (Granny Smith usually) prior to speaking... unfortunately any improvement is usually short-term.
Click to expand...

Interesting. Not a situation I can try that in, but I'll put that in my back pocket for interviews or something :-).

I've heard that condenser mics are more sensitive to mouth/room noise. Not sure the physics of that make sense intuitively to me yet--shouldn't all that matters be S/N, gain, and directionality?

You don't need a dual-XLR... the Tascam can record a single-channel mono track.. which is what you want anyway; as a bonus, it's half the file size of a dual-mono track (PCM <.wav> file).

My plan for the actual talk is to record in mono, with Tascam's "dual" mode backup track (have to decide how much lower the second track should be), since I won't be able to monitor. For this recording, since I wanted to compare to the interal X-Y mics, I recorded in stereo and then split off the external track to mono (and tossed track 4).

I wouldn't use a compressor (and certainly not AGC) when recording, just a peak limiter.
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I didn't. The compression was added in post, and only to the track labeled as processed. I used a limiter when recording, but still not quite sure of what settings to use for that (or if it's necessary/advisable with a backup track--for some tests I've manually cut out the clipping and inserted the backup track into those places).

Generally a sample rate of 44.1kHz (or 48k; audio for video) is sufficient for spoken word and 24 bits is recommended if your recording low levels..
Click to expand...

Yup. 48kHz, 24-bit PCM recording.

BTW, what is the final delivery format going to be?
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Not entirely sure yet. Probably something like Vimeo so I can embed on my personal website. There's nothing too essential about this, but since I'm spending weeks prepping these talks anyway I figured might as well document them and add to the online resume.

Your post (comp/EQ, ect.) settings depend on the program material, so if it sounds good to you, so be it.
Click to expand...

It doesn't sound perfect to me by any means, but it sounds better than I was expecting. Curious what others think I should be learning about/considering in order to improve. This is totally impractical for me to be spending time on, as it's not my career, but I find it fascinating and would love to learn and get feedback.
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Anything acidic will lower the spit noises a bit, so even water wit some lemon juice will help. The main way to fix in post is editing, you just have to cut out the sounds and fill with room tone. The RT can be stolen from some dead air close to the cut usually since it's a sort bit.

Condensers have less mass in the diaphragm compared to a dynamic where you are moving the whole voice coil so that makes them relativly more sensitive to short sounds and higher frequencies, both major components of lip smacking.
 
I've heard that condenser mics are more sensitive to mouth/room noise
- It depends. A dynamic isn't really an option fi your gonna be moving around. Due to a dynamic's inherent low output you would need to 'eat the mic'. The only dynamic lav I'm aware of is the SM11.

"I used a limiter when recording, but still not quite sure of what settings to use for that (or if it's necessary/advisable with a backup track"
- On the DR-40, the limiter is either on or off. It's after the analog input stage and only keeps the signal from exceeding 0.0dBFS (clip).
The level of the 'Dual Rec.' safety track depends on the initial level settings.. how much additional headroom is needed on the primary track, for instance, if you plan on firing a gun, use the maximum attenuation.

"Not entirely sure yet. Probably something like Vimeo so I can embed on my personal website"
- With video, Vimeo and YT's re-encode process seems to do the least damage when submitting an MP4/H-264/AAC format. So if possible I would render a mono CBR 320kbs MP4/AAC, M4A/AAC or MP3. FWIW, I prefer the Nero AAC encoder for AAC, and LAME for 96kbs and higher MP3.

BTW, Your lavaliere audio clips sound muffled (even on my mid-rangy Auratones). I would try bringing out the high-mids in the neighborhood of 2k to 6kHz and cut the 200Hz area a few dB.
 
Noiz2 said:
Anything acidic will lower the spit noises a bit, so even water wit some lemon juice will help. The main way to fix in post is editing, you just have to cut out the sounds and fill with room tone. The RT can be stolen from some dead air close to the cut usually since it's a sort bit.

Condensers have less mass in the diaphragm compared to a dynamic where you are moving the whole voice coil so that makes them relativly more sensitive to short sounds and higher frequencies, both major components of lip smacking.
Click to expand...

That all makes much sense. I guess large diaphragm condensers are better for mouth noises then?

RickR said:
I've heard that condenser mics are more sensitive to mouth/room noise
- It depends. A dynamic isn't really an option fi your gonna be moving around. Due to a dynamic's inherent low output you would need to 'eat the mic'. The only dynamic lav I'm aware of is the SM11.

"I used a limiter when recording, but still not quite sure of what settings to use for that (or if it's necessary/advisable with a backup track"
- On the DR-40, the limiter is either on or off. It's after the analog input stage and only keeps the signal from exceeding 0.0dBFS (clip).
The level of the 'Dual Rec.' safety track depends on the initial level settings.. how much additional headroom is needed on the primary track, for instance, if you plan on firing a gun, use the maximum attenuation.
Click to expand...

You're right of course. Must have confused it with another mode.

"Not entirely sure yet. Probably something like Vimeo so I can embed on my personal website"
- With video, Vimeo and YT's re-encode process seems to do the least damage when submitting an MP4/H-264/AAC format. So if possible I would render a mono CBR 320kbs MP4/AAC, M4A/AAC or MP3. FWIW, I prefer the Nero AAC encoder for AAC, and LAME for 96kbs and higher MP3.

BTW, Your lavaliere audio clips sound muffled (even on my mid-rangy Auratones). I would try bringing out the high-mids in the neighborhood of 2k to 6kHz and cut the 200Hz area a few dB.
Click to expand...

Thanks very much for weighing in on that. I'm listening on Sennheiser HD-580's driven by an E-MU 0202, but I think it's more my ear that I still have to train to hear what really clear vocals sound like. Will play around with the EQ.
 
linuxizer said:
That all makes much sense. I guess large diaphragm condensers are better for mouth noises then?
Click to expand...

Maybe slightly but not a lot. The larger area is more sensitive in general so... With a condenser you still just have a membrane you have to move and a dynamic has a coil of wire connected to a diaphragm and you have to get the whole thing moving, think of it as basically a speaker in reverse. It takes more work to get it all in motion.

It's like a lot of things in sound. The "fix" is to not do it in the first place. Most people don't have a lot of thick spit smacking around. If your only fixing a few it's not that hard, it's when someone is just smacking all over when it's a lot of work to clean up.
 
Here's a quick stab I took at processing your lav audio. Overall I found that the audio you recorded was very "muddy" sounding, so I boosted the upper range which to my ear improves the audio quality of the recording but also emphasizes hiss quite a bit. I suspect that the "muddiness" may be caused by either your lav mic or how you positioned the lav when recording.

150110_0014S34monoGM.zip : 10 MB ZIP file
 
Thanks so much. I'll give it (a few) careful listens when I'm near some sound reproduction device superior to my laptop speaker. :-)
 
Had a listen. It definitely sounds clearer. It also sounds more like the version of my voice that I'm used to from tape recorders (which is what friends/family tell me I sound like).

The waveform looks much more even. Did you apply compression?
 
linuxizer said:
Had a listen. It definitely sounds clearer. It also sounds more like the version of my voice that I'm used to from tape recorders (which is what friends/family tell me I sound like). The waveform looks much more even. Did you apply compression?
Click to expand...

I did my normal audio processing which involves manually applying volume gain and compression to parts of the recording to even out the overall audio level, as well as paragraphic EQ to modify the tone of your voice. If you're interested I can send you a PM that goes into more detail about what I did.
 
linuxizer said:
Same mic, run into a cheap phantom power supply (Nady Audio) and thence into my EMU-0202. It's nice to have a dial to adjust the gain! This was recorded in a much noisier setting (laptop + ceiling fans), albeit at a less noisy time of day.

https://soundcloud.com/gsk3/sets/test-of-naiant-xlr-lavalier-omni-condenser-with-emu-0202-usb
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I prefer the uncompressed sound straight out of the microphone in this example. Is the lack of hiss due to the better preamps of the EMU-0202? I wonder how this would sound on a Tascam DR-60d? (which is the original version, sells for $99 - $150 on ebay now the the newer slightly revised MK II is out) The DR-60d supposedly has good pre-amps.

I am in your situation being a noob to audio recording. Here's a tip that would have saved me WEEKS of searching on various forums, Youtube and Vimeo: Go to Lynda.com, sign up for their free 7 day trial and take this course:

http://www.lynda.com/Pro-Tools-tutorials/digital-audio-principles/338-2.html

The lessons are about 7 hours in total. Some of it is out of date being recorded in 2007 and you should also be aware that it is geared toward musicians. I skipped over about 40% of it. The remaining 60% was invaluable. I can send you my Voodoopad notes from the tutorial if you are interested (just PM me)

The Naiant lavs sound good when paired with a good preamp. I have more confidence in those over the cheap MXL lavs.
 
DanDU said:
I prefer the uncompressed sound straight out of the microphone in this example. Is the lack of hiss due to the better preamps of the EMU-0202?
Click to expand...

That's my assumption, since it's the more likely source than the DAC, which is the other thing that changed.

I wonder how this would sound on a Tascam DR-60d? (which is the original version, sells for $99 - $150 on ebay now the the newer slightly revised MK II is out) The DR-60d supposedly has good pre-amps.
Click to expand...

No clue. The DR-40 is not known for its serenity pre-amp wise.

I am in your situation being a noob to audio recording. Here's a tip that would have saved me WEEKS of searching on various forums, Youtube and Vimeo: Go to Lynda.com, sign up for their free 7 day trial and take this course:

http://www.lynda.com/Pro-Tools-tutorials/digital-audio-principles/338-2.html

The lessons are about 7 hours in total. Some of it is out of date being recorded in 2007 and you should also be aware that it is geared toward musicians. I skipped over about 40% of it. The remaining 60% was invaluable. I can send you my Voodoopad notes from the tutorial if you are interested (just PM me)

The Naiant lavs sound good when paired with a good preamp. I have more confidence in those over the cheap MXL lavs.
Click to expand...

I'd love your notes. Will PM.

I'm on Linux so that limits the audio (and video) tools available, but I can likely find approximate analogues for the basic tools in Audacity or Ardour. Only need one.

Ideally we'd have a side-by-side comparison between the Naiant and the MXL. However, compared to what I read in reviews of the MXL, build quality is definitely better in the Naiant. The XLR jack alone is worth it, compared to the slightly-too-large Monoprice cables I have.

Again, part of me wishes I had just got the OST so I wouldn't have to worry about if it was the mike vs. the pre-amps vs. the whatever. But this will do for now.
 
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