My whole city is in class D airspace!

F

firehawk

Veteran
I was looking at a sectional chart and my whole city (population 80,000) is in class D airspace. We have a rinky dink airport so I can see why you shouldn't fly around it without pre-authorization, but this means that if I want to fly a quadcopter 80 ft in the air several miles away from the airport I can't.....
unless I submit a request 90 days ahead of time and hope they approve it.

So that means I can forget working for almost everyone, especially car dealers who call you 2 days before they want you to film.

That means I'd have to tell a realtor that wants an aerial photo taken 50ft in the air, "I'll be happy to help you do that; let me see if I can get authorization for 90 days away and hope it's not raining or windy then" and then the realtor says, "forget it. I want the property listed next week."

And the construction client says "we will have the thing built before you even get authorization to film it, pal."

Then I looked a little up north where most of the rest of my clients are and voila! Several more Class D airspaces plus a class C. :thumbdown

I haven't yet needed to fly 300 or 400 ft high but being unable to fly as high as even light poles is not cool. Airplanes and helicopters won't be flying that low unless they are crashing.

On the plus side I found some farm land that wasn't in airspace or military zones so maybe I can film some trees and cows.
 
firehawk said:
I was looking at a sectional chart and my whole city (population 80,000) is in class D airspace. We have a rinky dink airport so I can see why you shouldn't fly around it without pre-authorization, but this means that if I want to fly a quadcopter 80 ft in the air several miles away from the airport I can't.....
unless I submit a request 90 days ahead of time and hope they approve it.

So that means I can forget working for almost everyone, especially car dealers who call you 2 days before they want you to film.

That means I'd have to tell a realtor that wants an aerial photo taken 50ft in the air, "I'll be happy to help you do that; let me see if I can get authorization for 90 days away and hope it's not raining or windy then" and then the realtor says, "forget it. I want the property listed next week."

And the construction client says "we will have the thing built before you even get authorization to film it, pal."

Then I looked a little up north where most of the rest of my clients are and voila! Several more Class D airspaces plus a class C. :thumbdown

I haven't yet needed to fly 300 or 400 ft high but being unable to fly as high as even light poles is not cool. Airplanes and helicopters won't be flying that low unless they are crashing.

On the plus side I found some farm land that wasn't in airspace or military zones so maybe I can film some trees and cows.
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from a DJI forum:

"in my area, i call the airport tower, and notify them when ever i'm flying in Class-D AirSpace, they typically ask a few questions and thats it."

http://www.phantompilots.com/threads/class-d-e-airspace.86248/

ck this out also:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OP9KY3lNeBc&feature=youtu.be


_________________


The issues you are facing with the drone work is a reason myself and a lot of other old dogs in the biz said "no thanks" when drones appeared on the scene. The FAA issues and, more than that, the liability should a drone crash into someone and injure them.

Had the drones remained more expensive and not become low cost enough for every Tom, Dick, and Harry to have one, the FAA probably would not have cracked down as much as they have. A shame that all the people just flying them for fun have made it near impossible for those who want to fly them professionally and responsibly.

Just wait until more people start flying drone swarms. What a mess that will be.

I can see a future where thousands of micro drones fly in formation to form advertisements that travel around in the sky. Possibly even enough micro drones in a formation to where each drone acts as a "pixel" in a giant image.

I feel for you and your dilemma. The saying "This is why we can't have nice things." comes to mind.
 
Thank you JPNola! That is encouraging because the info I had said do not contact the tower, it has to be one through the FAA 90 authorization process online.
So I'll try what the guys said in the links you provided.
I'm even willing to buy a radio so I can listen to communications and traffic, though we aren't allowed to speak on it.
 
I've avoided drones completely so far due to all the hoops you need to jump through. Any time a client asks If I can do some drone shots, I tell them I will gladly help them source a fully licensed local drone operator.

I won't work with anyone who is operating illegally at all because I don't want to become a liable party in any accidents that occur.

It is a shame that this is what it has to come to, but the legal complications and implications are just to much to deal with. And any client who does not understand this or expects me to bend laws in order to work for them is probably not a client I want to keep.
 
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Start applying for waivers for the areas in which you intend to conduct Part 107 ops. Might take 90 days, might take less.
 
JPNola said:
from a DJI forum:

"in my area, i call the airport tower, and notify them when ever i'm flying in Class-D AirSpace, they typically ask a few questions and thats it."

http://www.phantompilots.com/threads/class-d-e-airspace.86248/

ck this out also:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OP9KY3lNeBc&feature=youtu.be


_________________


The issues you are facing with the drone work is a reason myself and a lot of other old dogs in the biz said "no thanks" when drones appeared on the scene. The FAA issues and, more than that, the liability should a drone crash into someone and injure them.

Had the drones remained more expensive and not become low cost enough for every Tom, Dick, and Harry to have one, the FAA probably would not have cracked down as much as they have. A shame that all the people just flying them for fun have made it near impossible for those who want to fly them professionally and responsibly.

Just wait until more people start flying drone swarms. What a mess that will be.

I can see a future where thousands of micro drones fly in formation to form advertisements that travel around in the sky. Possibly even enough micro drones in a formation to where each drone acts as a "pixel" in a giant image.

I feel for you and your dilemma. The saying "This is why we can't have nice things." comes to mind.
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Parallels everything else in this "business", now. If cameras still cost more than a nice dinner, then every Tom, Dick and Harry... Well, you know.
 
J Michael said:
Start applying for waivers for the areas in which you intend to conduct Part 107 ops. Might take 90 days, might take less.
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But if I understand correctly, you have to apply for a waiver for each shoot.
So if my client was Smith Chevrolet and they wanted to shoot several times a year I would have to get waivers for each shoot I did there. One problem is almost none of my clients are organized enough to give me a weeks notice, much less 90 days.
Plus a lot can change in 90 days as we know.

Yeah as mentioned earlier, when gear got cheap this industry has gone down the drain. But we do have amazing tools I could only dream of 25 years ago
 
firehawk said:
One problem is almost none of my clients are organized enough to give me a weeks notice, much less 90 days.
Plus a lot can change in 90 days as we know.
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In this case your problem may be as much with client expectations as it is with FAA rules. It's like the old adage: "Good, Fast, Cheap; Pick two" Unfortunately some people will never understand this but hopefully a little bit of education will get them to understand.

If they want it good and fast, a fully licensed specialist drone operator or a chartered helicopter are usually able to walk the legal minefield and fly at short notice in a way that casual operators cannot - albeit it a much higher cost.

If they want it good and cheap, they'll have to allow the 90 days for you to get the waivers, and plan ahead.

If they want fast and cheap, then aerial cinematography is the first thing to cut from the storyboards. Maybe look into a jib shot instead?
 
JPNola said:
Had the drones remained more expensive and not become low cost enough for every Tom, Dick, and Harry to have one, the FAA probably would not have cracked down as much as they have. A shame that all the people just flying them for fun have made it near impossible for those who want to fly them professionally and responsibly.
Click to expand...

Since I have been involved in the RC community, I feel I must remind everyone of something. If it wasn't for the RC community pushing limits and inventing things, these aircraft would not exist! DJI didn't exist until they took the designs on the RC forums and made a product they could sell. (DJI did innovate past what they used, but they also aren't giving back to the community that helped them form) Please don't bash the very people who made this possible.

As to the less than responsible people, you can't control fools. Nothing that could be done about it. And the vast number of hobby pilots do follow the rules provided by the AMA and aren't a problem to the full size pilots.
 
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I'm an airline pilot based in Texas. Admittedly I don't fly drones, though I'm more interested as the smaller cameras get better.

This is the definition of Class D airspace:

Class D airspace is typically established around any airport with a functioning control tower, but that does not see significant IFR approaches which would make Class B or C more appropriate (usually because there is no scheduled commercial passenger service). Class D airspace generally cylindrical in form and normally extends from the surface to 2,500 feet (760 m) above the ground. The outer radius of the airspace is variable, but is generally 4 nautical miles. Airspace within the given radius, but in surrounding class C or wclass B airspace, is excluded. Class D airspace reverts to class E or G during hours when the tower is closed, or under other special conditions.

Two-way communication with ATC must be established before entering class D airspace, but no transponder is required. VFR cloud clearance and visibility requirements are the same as class C.

To the original poster...I'd call the tower and request a tower tour. When you're there, ask the tower supervisor 1) when is the Class D uncontrolled (times of day or night), and 2) whether a radio or phone call would satisfy the provisions of two-way communications with the tower. Advise them you'll be at 50 feet and below, and give them a geographic reference.

I'm thinking it'll be okay.

Two-way communication with ATC must be established before entering class D airspace, but no transponder is required. VFR cloud clearance and visibility requirements are the same as class C.
 
Thanks everyone. Very helpful.

Establishing some sort of communication with ATC is what I will try. Airman radios can be bought for around $200 and I'm fine paying that so I can listen to activity or if they tell me they prefer radio contact instead of a phone call. The rules say don't call the tower and don't say anything on radio but I'll ask the tower what they prefer if I can get a tour.

The 90 day period just won't work. I admit most of my clients are disorganized, procrastinating, ill-prepared and unthoughtful. But when it comes to car lots, once corporate drops incentives there isn't much time to get the ads produced and airing. Same with several other scenarios.
There look to be several more airports just a little north of me where most of my other clients are so I'll have to contact and visit them all. I wasn't even aware there were so many airports and airspaces around here until recently. I'm glad I am learning more about this.

I am curious about the afore mentioned fully licensed specialist drone operator status. How do you become one of those?
 
One more item of note: Do not buy an aircraft radio and start trying to communicate with the tower. Per FCC:

--On October 25, 1996, the FCC released a Report and Order in WT Docket No. 96-82 (text) eliminating the individual licensing requirement for all aircraft, including scheduled air carriers, air taxis and general aviation aircraft operating domestically. This means that you do not need a license to operate a two-way VHF radio, radar, or emergency locator transmitter (ELT) aboard aircraft operating domestically. All other aircraft radio stations must be licensed by the FCC either individually or by fleet.--

Since you would not be transmitting from aboard your aircraft you would need a license to do so. Since VHF is line of sight, you might have problems establishing communications at the edges of Class D from the ground. Besides, FAA does not want UAS operators calling on the radio, they have enough to handle as it is with inbound and outbound GA traffic.

It doesn't look like you can apply for waivers until you have your 107 ticket, however a workaround would be to find a pilot in your area to partner with and apply for a waiver in the name of your company with your pilot being listed as the PIC. There is a pilot search on the FAA site which should make it easy to find someone local.

I read somewhere there is an app for training on the Part 107 that was inexpensive and effective, so you might look for that.
 
dwiener said:
The FAA offers a free online course covering the requirements. https://www.faasafety.gov/gslac/ALC/course_content.aspx?cID=451&sID=726&crID=1436761

You can also download the Pilots Handbook for free from their website
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Note: "This course assumes the learner has operational knowledge of 14 CFR part 61, Certification: Pilots, Flight Instructors, and Ground Instructors, and 14 CFR part 91, General Operating and Flight Rules. The course focuses on the knowledge areas of 14 CFR part 107 that are beyond the operational knowledge of parts 61 and 91."

That course is intended for those already holding a pilot certificate to pick up the needed extra info to qualify for their UAS pilot certificate. Nothing wrong with using the FAA materials and you should learn to use those resources, but there is quite an industry in producing materials that do a better job of conveying the needed information and clarifying things.
 
J Michael said:
Note: "This course assumes the learner has operational knowledge of 14 CFR part 61, Certification: Pilots, Flight Instructors, and Ground Instructors, and 14 CFR part 91, General Operating and Flight Rules. The course focuses on the knowledge areas of 14 CFR part 107 that are beyond the operational knowledge of parts 61 and 91."

That course is intended for those already holding a pilot certificate to pick up the needed extra info to qualify for their UAS pilot certificate. Nothing wrong with using the FAA materials and you should learn to use those resources, but there is quite an industry in producing materials that do a better job of conveying the needed information and clarifying things.
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Correct. The app you are looking for is called
'Study Buddy' and is on the App Store for $9.99.
It has all the info used to study for your private
pilots license. You can just deselect areas of study
which obviously won't apply to a UAV...things like
'powerplant' or such....there are 4 or 5 obvious ones
to deselect. Or you can pay for one of the other
(many) courses out there....which as you mentioned
are quite numerous.
 
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I used to fly radio control sail planes with a friend. The field that we commonly used was within the approach radius of both a local downtown airport and the major commercial air field. Both are monitored and controlled by the commerical tower now.
We called the tower to inform them of flight days and they would sometimes issue restrictions on altitude based on the day's traffic patterns. Typically this was 3000 feet as we were not in a final approach path for either airport.
 
Thanks again everyone. Yes I have completed the FAA training course and have the certificate and soon should have the Part 107 certification.
Mentioned earlier in the thread was some sort of "specialist" license that I am not familiar with and was wondering if there was something above and beyond the 107 certification for UAS that might be helpful.

The reason I started this thread was that in my studying I discovered that almost everywhere I need to fly is a Class D airspace which in my town goes from ground to 3000feet. That means that a Part 107 licensed operator cannot enter this airspace (cannot fly at all) without prior authorization from ATC which in the regulations says can only be obtained by writing or online request 90 days out.

So that basically means I cannot so much as even lift the thing off the ground without submitting the request 90 days out and waiting for approval. Plus the reports I am hearing are that the FAA rejects way more requests than they approve. So this basically means I can't fly at all regardless of being licensed because almost no clients are going to endure the waiting period.

Now some people have mentioned and one guy said they actually talked with ATC via phone call just prior to flight (which is prohibited according to my FAA training material) and they kindly authorized his flight. This would be a very workable solution but as more and more people do this, ATC does not want to be receiving lots of phone calls. So this option will likely not be an option (for long) and then it's back to the 90 day thing.
 
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