kwkeirstead
Well-known member
I like the Elk Ridge clip. Agreed, it's a bit fast-paced.
My rant: Am I being underpaid or am I in the right here?
- Thread starter Rylan Zolinski
- Start date
Rylan Zolinski
Well-known member
Are you mainly referring to the car review? Yeah... The quick cuts are by request. I'm not a fan myself. The color and film stock was supposed to be a throwback to the 60s as the car is a Challenger. Guess I didn't sell it well, lol.
Rylan Zolinski
Well-known member
In defense of the car thing, that is a style. Check out these athlete profile pieces for CBS Local that myself and another videographer shot (we didn't edit them, but it's a similar vibe to yours):
https://vimeo.com/60634582
https://vimeo.com/60634583
https://vimeo.com/60634582
https://vimeo.com/60634583
I have a degree in Photography. I started working seriously in Digital Imaging Systems around 1991.
After a certain point, you can work 20-40 hour weeks at $50 to $100 an hour doing computer "consulting." Or make minimum wage while also supporting the overhead of a studio and $30,000 worth of equipment. Both using the same basic skill sets.
If you can get the income you need elsewhere, do personal or paid projects that you enjoy, build your skill and quality, and let the crap jobs go. Otherwise you burn out doing menial, boring, low end **** and have no energy lef1t the end of the week for what you used to be passionate about.
I agree 100% on learning about the Cost of Doing Business.And learning about business in general.
I can't work anymore due to chronic pain. When I "retired" and closed my studio 8 years ago, I made about $70k designing large, proprietary digital imaging systems 3 days a week. And spent the other 3 days a week shooting hand picked fashion and personal projects at my studio.
A friend who I tried to "set up" in business (using my studio/business experience as backing) would chase a $100 job on Craigslist. First he drove 1 hour each way to meet with the client for an additional hour. Then he drove an hour each way to shoot for 3 hours. After spending 5-6 hours in post, they asked for changes that took another 4-5 hours.
After all of that ****, they slow paid him the $100. The guy was desperate, so he chased that stuff, plus church jobs, etc. Of course he had wound up declaring bankruptcy after 1-2 years. Then he got a job at a Comcast call center.
He would have been better off working the call center and doing higher quality creative jobs in his free time. But there are still 10-20 more wannabes lined up behind him, giving it away for "future work", or " your name on the cover "/" your name on our web site "/ " to build your portfolio ", etc.
Value your life. Value your time. It is all you have, and it is limited. And as others mentioned, there is an "opportunity cost" to everything that you do. What you could have been doing instead....
Cheers & good luck.
M.
After a certain point, you can work 20-40 hour weeks at $50 to $100 an hour doing computer "consulting." Or make minimum wage while also supporting the overhead of a studio and $30,000 worth of equipment. Both using the same basic skill sets.
If you can get the income you need elsewhere, do personal or paid projects that you enjoy, build your skill and quality, and let the crap jobs go. Otherwise you burn out doing menial, boring, low end **** and have no energy lef1t the end of the week for what you used to be passionate about.
I agree 100% on learning about the Cost of Doing Business.And learning about business in general.
I can't work anymore due to chronic pain. When I "retired" and closed my studio 8 years ago, I made about $70k designing large, proprietary digital imaging systems 3 days a week. And spent the other 3 days a week shooting hand picked fashion and personal projects at my studio.
A friend who I tried to "set up" in business (using my studio/business experience as backing) would chase a $100 job on Craigslist. First he drove 1 hour each way to meet with the client for an additional hour. Then he drove an hour each way to shoot for 3 hours. After spending 5-6 hours in post, they asked for changes that took another 4-5 hours.
After all of that ****, they slow paid him the $100. The guy was desperate, so he chased that stuff, plus church jobs, etc. Of course he had wound up declaring bankruptcy after 1-2 years. Then he got a job at a Comcast call center.
He would have been better off working the call center and doing higher quality creative jobs in his free time. But there are still 10-20 more wannabes lined up behind him, giving it away for "future work", or " your name on the cover "/" your name on our web site "/ " to build your portfolio ", etc.
Value your life. Value your time. It is all you have, and it is limited. And as others mentioned, there is an "opportunity cost" to everything that you do. What you could have been doing instead....
Cheers & good luck.
M.
alaskacameradude
Veteran
I agree with the above. And I know all about grinder clients and living in a market that
doesn't value the work 'because there are hundreds of kids lining up behind you that will
do it for $50'. I know you are thinking 'easy for you to say'. But I've been there.
You HAVE to break out of that place or all you will ever be is the 'cheap video guy'.
They already know you will do it for $100, why would they pay more? You have to
actually value yourself enough to say 'no, I'm worth more than that' and walk away
from those jobs. Get a different level client who values quality. Trust me, there are
people in your city making good money doing this. Maybe not a lot of them, but there
are some. Your time would be better spent working as a volunteer assistant camera op
to one of the good DP's in your city, instead of working for these $100 jobs. Working
with them would teach you how to make great stuff and deal with good clients.
Maybe you think you are already good, and maybe you are. But the highly
successful shooter is highly successful for a reason. If you worked with one
could you figure out why he was successful and you weren't? Put away the ego
and see why he succeeds? Maybe he's better at shooting, maybe he's just better
at making the clients 'feel good' about being involved with him. It's hard,
but I worked as a PA, gaffer, grip, and AC with some very good DP's, after I had
started my business. I tried to 'steal' at least one or two tricks from each
of them.
Finally, remember, you only have so much time on this earth. YOUR TIME
IS VALUABLE....ALMOST PRICELESS!!! I love video work. I love
my family and friends so much more. Don't waste all your time working
for $100 grinder clients. You don't want to pay my day rate mr. Grinder?
Bummer, I'll spend the day hiking with my kids. I realize you need to make
a living, but there are so many ways to do that. Don't waste time putting in
60-70 hour weeks for clowns that pay you so little. You and your time
are worth so much more than that. There are thousands of grinder clients.
There is only one of you in the whole world.
doesn't value the work 'because there are hundreds of kids lining up behind you that will
do it for $50'. I know you are thinking 'easy for you to say'. But I've been there.
You HAVE to break out of that place or all you will ever be is the 'cheap video guy'.
They already know you will do it for $100, why would they pay more? You have to
actually value yourself enough to say 'no, I'm worth more than that' and walk away
from those jobs. Get a different level client who values quality. Trust me, there are
people in your city making good money doing this. Maybe not a lot of them, but there
are some. Your time would be better spent working as a volunteer assistant camera op
to one of the good DP's in your city, instead of working for these $100 jobs. Working
with them would teach you how to make great stuff and deal with good clients.
Maybe you think you are already good, and maybe you are. But the highly
successful shooter is highly successful for a reason. If you worked with one
could you figure out why he was successful and you weren't? Put away the ego
and see why he succeeds? Maybe he's better at shooting, maybe he's just better
at making the clients 'feel good' about being involved with him. It's hard,
but I worked as a PA, gaffer, grip, and AC with some very good DP's, after I had
started my business. I tried to 'steal' at least one or two tricks from each
of them.
Finally, remember, you only have so much time on this earth. YOUR TIME
IS VALUABLE....ALMOST PRICELESS!!! I love video work. I love
my family and friends so much more. Don't waste all your time working
for $100 grinder clients. You don't want to pay my day rate mr. Grinder?
Bummer, I'll spend the day hiking with my kids. I realize you need to make
a living, but there are so many ways to do that. Don't waste time putting in
60-70 hour weeks for clowns that pay you so little. You and your time
are worth so much more than that. There are thousands of grinder clients.
There is only one of you in the whole world.
EDV
Well-known member
Holy crap... I thought my situation was bad and everybody else was making money off video. Last time I charged $100 for a job was 2011.. it was for a friend, and basically was scanning some old photos and animating them for a slideshow. It actually took me several days of work on the computer, and afterwards, I felt I should have charged at least $200... but I got lots of great feedback and so at least I felt good about it. Definitely wouldn't do it again for $100 though... I make $80 for a two hour piano lesson these days.
To put it another way, you know all those cheap businesses that have popped up in the last few years that do small business profiles where the videographer shoots it in an hour, edits, and uploads it to them in 48 hours or less (turnhere, etc.)? Yup, they pay $200 or $225 for that.
Even the lowest-paid local news photogs make ~$9/hr, plus benefits.
If they only want to pay $100 but you want to make at least $25/hr, then crush your edits into 4hrs maximum. Do the absolute best job you can during that time, but not a minute more. The results will more than likely be "good enough." There's no need to give them your life.
If they only want to pay $100 but you want to make at least $25/hr, then crush your edits into 4hrs maximum. Do the absolute best job you can during that time, but not a minute more. The results will more than likely be "good enough." There's no need to give them your life.
mainstreetprod
Veteran
What Josh said. The same companies sometimes hire people to "edit only" when someone else shoots it, that pays $100- the same amount you are getting to edit 27 times the footage. And you can find threads where videographers complain over and over about these companies pay being low (personally I'm fine with it). I don't see how you could possibly condense this amount of editing to 4 hours as someone suggested. But if you can, more power to you. Me, I'd walk.
What he said
I've seen this field dramatically change since I started in the 90s. There used to be one real studio here that charged A LOT and they wouldn't even talk to you below a certain price. 15 years later there are about a dozen companies (a guy with a camera) that pop up each year, do cheap work and fade away. The one real studio now sometimes does jobs 1/10 the price they used to demand which was unheard of before, but has high end corporate and national clients that support them mainly.
Cheap cameras, cheap computers and 'free' software are accessible to masses now.
However, skillsets, business sense and client relationship skills are not as widespread. Nor is real production value.
Ok, i live & work in Vancouver too, my unbiased opinion is to move on, $100 for a 27 min show? ouch… I'd rather work for free on something that is creative & fun
I bill in the quoted NYC range, am working waaayyy to much right now.
It can be done, but you will need to break free from the chains that shakle, and come up with a killer spot or two, the good producer's in all know each other, all talk to each other… word of mouth is the best way to get gigs here
I have no website, no reel, no biz card, no published phone number and am booked into next year solely by word on the street.
Good luck
d
Rylan Zolinski
Well-known member
Do you happen to have any work posted anywhere? I'd love to check out your stuff if possible. How did you break into the market so well?
I can relate, OP. I moved to Vancouver 2 years ago now and decided to tackle the freelance market. It was slow and steady at first but I've finally got myself in a decent place. Most of those articles like the cow one earlier that talk about grinders and bad clients...all those cliches are true, I've learned.
You are currently getting hosed big time and judging by your work, you could do much better than what they are paying you. It's kind of like romantic relationships...the trap of trying to change a client into paying big is futile. Best bet is to seek out better clients and simply part ways with these guys (on good terms) when you can afford to. I don't believe in burning bridges or being mean, but at the same time you are allowed to move on if the terms don't work for you. I've now got a few solid clients who do pay well and treat me very kindly. I also work part time/contract for a few production houses in town.
I took many, many cheap gigs when I started. Those people still call/email me once in a while and now I just say I'm too busy. Eventually they will not bother. It'll ruin your love for video production if you keep going with these types of clients. I understand having no choice at times, I certainly didn't for a while... but I'd say move on as soon as you can. Feel free to PM if you want.
You are currently getting hosed big time and judging by your work, you could do much better than what they are paying you. It's kind of like romantic relationships...the trap of trying to change a client into paying big is futile. Best bet is to seek out better clients and simply part ways with these guys (on good terms) when you can afford to. I don't believe in burning bridges or being mean, but at the same time you are allowed to move on if the terms don't work for you. I've now got a few solid clients who do pay well and treat me very kindly. I also work part time/contract for a few production houses in town.
I took many, many cheap gigs when I started. Those people still call/email me once in a while and now I just say I'm too busy. Eventually they will not bother. It'll ruin your love for video production if you keep going with these types of clients. I understand having no choice at times, I certainly didn't for a while... but I'd say move on as soon as you can. Feel free to PM if you want.
Rylan Zolinski
Well-known member
A video for Skinny Puppy? That's pretty awesome! Although they were before my time, they certainly were pretty big in the industrial genre. Good work!
kwkeirstead
Well-known member
Editing is creative work and requires a lot of skill.
Bundle videography with editing and your rate for editing can go up.
Bundle script writing with video and editing and you have one-stop services that many are unable to provide
.
Bundle videography with editing and your rate for editing can go up.
Bundle script writing with video and editing and you have one-stop services that many are unable to provide
.
Patryk_Rebisz
Veteran
Very bad idea. If someone has writer / director / editor on the website or business card then i'm NOT hiring this person. Jack of all trades is master of none - this has proven to be true many, many times.
kwkeirstead
Well-known member
Who says it has to be a one-person show? ,
David W. Jones
Veteran
Yes and no! In all honesty this is an old way of thinking, and it really depends.
Just because someone has acquired a vast skill set, does not mean they have not master those skills.
There are a number of folks out there with multiple masters degrees. Does that make them less qualified in one of those fields?
There are a number of big name movie directors who are also great editors & composers.
You yourself list your credentials as both a director, and a director of photography. Does that make you a master of none?