My rant: Am I being underpaid or am I in the right here?

Sometimes WAY less. I have seen companies put out ads for staff positions asking for high skill levels in a variety of software packages and offering $30k/year.
 
Morox said:
Where do you work out of to be able to charge that much? I think a big problem in Vancouver is that it's over saturated which drives down our rates considerably. I have a hard time finding anyone that pays more than $25/hour. Also, check your PM's.
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Why is Vancouver your market? I've got guys in Singapore that make four times the amount you charge.
 
I would assume cause he lives there (and thats not meant to be snarky). So folks only work locally. I on the other hand am ignored completely as a shooter by people in town and get all my camera work from out of town/state/country clients who find me via my web ads!
 
Morox said:
Nope, it starts with a V. Are you in the Vancouver area as well?

It was tough finding work from the get-go and so I put in extra effort to "wow" them. Now, that "wow" factor has become a standard. It's certainly my fault for putting myself in that position, but I needed the work.

Fortunately, I have a stable income outside of this. I do these side gigs for this company for extra coin. They've already bitched at me once stating that it was taking too long for them to receive a segment I had been working on. I straight up told them to "use a different editor then."
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Yup, I'm in Vancouver as well, and yes I've noticed a lot of those type of really low ball jobs.... but I imagine there are a lot of those anywhere.

I think it really varies here... as an editor, my "low" rate is 27/hour, my average probably around 35. I am primarily a shooter though, and make substantially more there. I usually only take edit jobs if I've shot it as well.

My comment about screwing the market wasn't intended to be harsh. In hindsight, do what you're comfortable with.... some people shop at no frills, some shop at wholefoods.... my sense is that you're not happy with the situation - if you're not happy, and you're not dependent on this income right now, then let it go... life is too short. If I were getting paid what equates to 10ish a hour, I'd have to really believe in the project (and if I did, and all they had was that , I'd actually rather just work for free), or if I needed the money I would just go find some normal job so that at least I don't burn out creatively. That's just me though!

Based on what you've said about they've treated you, I wouldn't cross my fingers for any future growth there..... the company's model probably revolves around high turn over.
 
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It's easy just say no to unrealistic requests, clients will always want you to work for less but you have to work out your baseline and don't go below it, that's the price of business. You'll lose some jobs but the upside is that 100 % of the jobs you do get you won't be screwed on if you stick to your rates. Anyone who successfully makes a living in this industry has to forget what the rest of the market is doing and price themselves sustainably or else go and get a second job perhaps flipping burgers and call this work a hobby. Also what is the return on investment for these videos, if they like your work and the end product is working for them then it's more profitable to stick with someone who is doing the job well than taking the gamble on finding someone else. I wouldn't do anymore 100 dollar videos, up your rates after you work out a good hourly rate and be prepared to walk away.

$ 100 dollars is an absurdly low rate for the work you are mentioning. I'd want ten times that and that would still be low. Editing s*** footage is harder than cutting something that was shot well to start with.
 
ericsanpablo said:
Yup, I'm in Vancouver as well, and yes I've noticed a lot of those type of really low ball jobs.... but I imagine there are a lot of those anywhere.

I think it really varies here... as an editor, my "low" rate is 27/hour, my average probably around 35. I am primarily a shooter though, and make substantially more there. I usually only take edit jobs if I've shot it as well.

My comment about screwing the market wasn't intended to be harsh. In hindsight, do what you're comfortable with.... some people shop at no frills, some shop at wholefoods.... my sense is that you're not happy with the situation - if you're not happy, and you're not dependent on this income right now, then let it go... life is too short. If I were getting paid what equates to 10ish a hour, I'd have to really believe in the project (and if I did, and all they had was that , I'd actually rather just work for free), or if I needed the money I would just go find some normal job so that at least I don't burn out creatively. That's just me though!

Based on what you've said about they've treated you, I wouldn't cross my fingers for any future growth there..... the company's model probably revolves around high turn over.
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Oh, I totally here ya and no offense taken at all. I've only been here for two years (came from Saskatoon). I did contract work for a few companies and none of them paid exceptionally well. If you don't mind me asking, how have you been able successfully land gigs with the competition the way it is here?

They've talked about "future growth" with me and actually a possible salary position, and while it sounds good on paper (they have some nice tie-ins with major players), it just feels it may not be worth it.

ryaninoz said:
It's easy just say no to unrealistic requests, clients will always want you to work for less but you have to work out your baseline and don't go below it, that's the price of business. You'll lose some jobs but the upside is that 100 % of the jobs you do get you won't be screwed on if you stick to your rates. Anyone who successfully makes a living in this industry has to forget what the rest of the market is doing and price themselves sustainably or else go and get a second job perhaps flipping burgers and call this work a hobby. Also what is the return on investment for these videos, if they like your work and the end product is working for them then it's more profitable to stick with someone who is doing the job well than taking the gamble on finding someone else. I wouldn't do anymore 100 dollar videos, up your rates after you work out a good hourly rate and be prepared to walk away.

$ 100 dollars is an absurdly low rate for the work you are mentioning. I'd want ten times that and that would still be low. Editing s*** footage is harder than cutting something that was shot well to start with.
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I have no idea what the return investment on these videos are but I really want to know. I have a feeling they make plenty and pay me with the leftover cash that fell between their car seats on their way to the bank to deposit their mountain of money.
 
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A wise man once said, "You are or you aren't....either way you're right". Seems like a LOT of work for such a little bit of extra cash to me.
 
Starting out, you either pay for education or experience. For both comes a time, when you have enough of it to start earning.
 
Spartacus said:
Starting out, you either pay for education or experience. For both comes a time, when you have enough of it to start earning.
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I've been in this field of work for over 7 years. I've worked in television as a production editor prior to moving to Vancouver. I've never had such a hard time finding work anywhere outside of Vancouver. It's nuts here.
 
Patryk_Rebisz said:
MY wife is an editor (everything from crappy and badly shot corporate to high end commercials). In NYC the rate for editor is $500-750/day. On long term projects you get $3000-4000/week. If you are junior working on a project you love you can make as little as $1500/week.

Your job takes 2 days so even by junior rates you should walk away with $600.

That said, as a person who has hired my share of editors - good editors are NOT easy to come by mostly because they work ALL THE TIME. Decent editors are a bit easier but they will laugh at the lower end of the rate. Still, if i can get a decent editor to do a job i charge my client $1400 for $100, then why not? In other words, in the view of the company you are the $100/day editor and that will never change. Walk and get decently paid work somewhere else.

Again, unlike DPs who works sparingly, editors work ALL THE TIME. Think about it, i shoot a commercial and get paid for the day maybe for extra day of prep, then the editor gets paid for 1 week of edit and maybe extra few days for changes. So while a DP works 2 days max, the editor works 10 days. Of course that's reflected in the rates (DP making a few times what editor does) but still if you count the $ at the end of typical project, my wife walks away ALWAYS with more $$ than me.
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That's crazy! I wonder why it's so different here... There are A LOT of job postings for freelancers/contract workers and the rates are always so absurdly low. I think it has a lot to do with the large amount of students that are being churned out and can be hired for next to nothing.
 
Patryk_Rebisz said:
MY wife is an editor (everything from crappy and badly shot corporate to high end commercials). In NYC the rate for editor is $500-750/day. On long term projects you get $3000-4000/week. If you are junior working on a project you love you can make as little as $1500/week.

Your job takes 2 days so even by junior rates you should walk away with $600.

That said, as a person who has hired my share of editors - good editors are NOT easy to come by mostly because they work ALL THE TIME. Decent editors are a bit easier but they will laugh at the lower end of the rate. Still, if i can get a decent editor to do a job i charge my client $1400 for $100, then why not? In other words, in the view of the company you are the $100/day editor and that will never change. Walk and get decently paid work somewhere else.

Again, unlike DPs who works sparingly, editors work ALL THE TIME. Think about it, i shoot a commercial and get paid for the day maybe for extra day of prep, then the editor gets paid for 1 week of edit and maybe extra few days for changes. So while a DP works 2 days max, the editor works 10 days. Of course that's reflected in the rates (DP making a few times what editor does) but still if you count the $ at the end of typical project, my wife walks away ALWAYS with more $$ than me.
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This is a good post and it really puts things in perspective. Especially the thoughts on the editing process and how much time it takes.

That's crazy! I wonder why it's so different here...
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Because he's talking about (I assume) the New York market where there is a need for editors. Plus, you have to be good at what you do to command those rates. They're not just handing out $700 day rate jobs to anyone with a Macbook Pro and a card reader.

I mentioned it in the other similar thread.....the higher rates/better gigs come with time and experience. I stay *plenty* busy in the shadows of NYC. Tons of corporate work & reasonable rates. But it didn't happen overnight. (although many of my edits go into the night.....)

PS: OP, walk away from this gig! If you have the inclination....move!
 
Charge as much as you are worth. If you charge low you will target the low market...if you stick to your guns, shoot high, and consistently deliver high quality work...well...then you make it to the next body of water. I see people all the time charge dirt cheap and can't get work. I also see companies charge a premium, deliver premium work, and are constantly backlogged with projects. Shoot high. Deliver high.
 
Scott F said:
This is a good post and it really puts things in perspective. Especially the thoughts on the editing process and how much time it takes.


Because he's talking about (I assume) the New York market where there is a need for editors. Plus, you have to be good at what you do to command those rates. They're not just handing out $700 day rate jobs to anyone with a Macbook Pro and a card reader.

I mentioned it in the other similar thread.....the higher rates/better gigs come with time and experience. I stay *plenty* busy in the shadows of NYC. Tons of corporate work & reasonable rates. But it didn't happen overnight. (although many of my edits go into the night.....)

PS: OP, walk away from this gig! If you have the inclination....move!
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I guess it boils down to not even knowing my own self-worth. I've been stuck getting paid around the same hourly rate for years and don't even properly know how to charge anyone as a lot of my experience was a based wage working with different companies.

I'd appreciate it if I had some feedback on my work:

https://vimeo.com/user407787/videos

Everything is edited by me and shot (except for the two reviews and the Rock Creek commercial). I created the motion graphics for everything as well.
 
Bassman2003 said:
Whoa Eric, this is not a fair statement. The "market" is the market. No one person is ever responsible for its movement. If you need work, take it...or someone else will. There is no honor in sitting at home because some guy on the internet said not to accept a certain level of pay.

Sadly, this is the current state of our industry People (clients) are spoiled and often expect an awesome project for little money. It is almost to the point of deciding if you even want to be a part of it all at times.

Keep your head up, establish rates you can live with and go find the clients. Maybe try to lower your hours in the current job? You might be over producing for the customer's expectations. If they cry then tell them it will cost more to put more time in. (the amount you are doing now).
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This is correct. The market is the market. If you don't want to get paid minimum wage at McDonald's, you have to educate or train yourself to do something the market values more. It's the same here. No one is taking advantage of you, they are simply paying you the market rate, which is low. Want a higher rate? Do something the markets values more.

How are rates determined? Supply and demand. Lots of people can flip a hamburger, rates are low. Not many people can do brain surgery, rates are high. If lots of people can edit, rates will be low. You want higher rates? You have to do something lots of people cannot do.
 
Some of this has to do with who your clients are/how you find them. I'm terrible at this stuff, but networking/self promotion/attending mixers and industry events may be a way to meet new potential clients. When/if you do, you can throw a new rate at em $25/30/50/who knows per hour, and if they go for it...BAM!
 
Morox said:
Will check it out. Thanks!

And if anyone wants to check out my work, feel free to look here. I always like feedback and maybe it can help determine my self-worth:

https://vimeo.com/user407787/videos
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Watched a few of your videos. For the most part they seem very busy. To me there are too many very short cuts, under 2 seconds, and too many FX added that have no cinematic purpose and don't contribute to the flow of the narrative. Faux dirty film looks for a car review? Why?
To be fair I did not see much in the way of inspired camera work in many of them. Of course you have to work with the footage you are given and there is to some extent a garbage in garbage out result there, but try going back to basics. Following action, cutting on action, giving static shots enough time onscreen for the brain to react to what is shown. Pick cutaways and follow on shots in a way that creates a seamless flow where the editing does not call so much attention to itself. Try to find a visual story flow to match the content. http://www.elementsofcinema.com/editing/kuleshov-effect-and-juxtaposition/ http://www.elementsofcinema.com/editing/slow-and-fast-montages/.
Please don't take this harshly, it is just one opinion and it is meant to stimulate thought in a positive way.
 
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