My post disappeared and then the thread was closed!

B

beefynn

New member
Hello
I replied to the thread on cinematography forum: http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?309217-Arri-Master-Prime-focus-ring-stuck
and later my comment disappeared and then moderator closed it.

I really think that my post is not wrong or rude. I am not kind of poster guy so I don't post much and I do it carefully. The weird thing is that I never see any thread is closed that fast and moderator just jumped to conclusion.

Maybe it's just malfunction or something technical.

thanks
 
I'm sure it was because the repair of a 20+ thousand dollar lens is not something that you should be giving someone advice about in terms of telling him how to do it. It would be one thing to refer him to a technician that can perform the repair, but to claim you know how to do so (even if you indeed do know how) and tell him that he can start tearing the thing down & that you'll guide him through it is not a wise idea. It's similar to telling someone how to do a tie-in, these are things that you just have to see in person several times to really know what you're doing.
 
It's just my opinion by the way. The forum is for sharing? or judging? If I was so wrong, why didn't they just point it out, tell the world what I was wrong. Deleting, censoring is immatual and no respect here. If giving someone advice about repairing HIS/HER belongings is bad idea, the moderator should delete the thread too since it's illegal DIY repairing?(no offend here) I totally believe that thread starter has ability to THINK or decide what he/she should do. What has left in the thread is just unrespect (and what moderator liked). I really like this site, many people here but so sad seeing this happened in year 2013 where freedom is growing. P.S. Maybe it's just me feeling like this. Hope moderator like this post unless it will be disappeared very soon :)
 
I'm curious as well. I read your deleted post. I'd like to understand what was wrong with it.

I'd also like to know why the thread was closed. While many find it incredulous that someone would attempt to work on their own lens, people do. I'm one of those people that is willing to open up and play with almost anything. I have limits, but they are few. Who is to say what the original poster's capabilities are? And who is to say what beefynn's capabilities are?

I am curious why someone would work on a $20k lens. I was actually excited to see the post and wanted to see where this was going. While I think the chances that someone that has the skills to work on lenses would respond to such a query, I see no reason to delete posts or close the thread. I really would have like to see where beefynn was going.

We are hare to learn and share. What was wrong with the thread and post?
 
I just read through the thread... unfortunately I was unable to read your post, but in my opinion, the thread should not have been shut down. Obviously Ryan took it personally and was offended by the inquiry. That's fine, but shutting down the thread because of personal opinions? So now we're censoring what other people should and shouldn't do with their own gear on dvxuser?? Sorry, but that's kinda bullish!t. If the guy was indeed a troll, shut it down... but I see no evidence of that. All I see is a mod who doesn't like the idea of someone messing with a precious lens, so he decided he wouldn't allow it. Not the DVXuser I remember, and not the one I want to see it turned into

If there's more to the story than I can see now, and justification for shutting it down, then by all means shut it down, but please give an explanation.
 
Let's all just calm down a bit here, okay?

Now, I don't speak for Ryan, but chances are he felt that the advice given my Mitch Gross was the best advice that could possibly be given, and that at that point, the thread had served it's purpose. Hence, he closed it. I don't think there's any conspiracy here, only a moderator's opinion that a question had been asked and answered.
 
I'm not trying to start a riot or anything, I'm just saying that thread looks unjust to me. A guy came and asked a simple question. Then a moderator jumped on him, called him a troll, said he was out of his mind, jumped to conclusions about the guys character, and said that he "has no idea what he's doing".

I *usually* have nothing but respect for Ryan, and all the mods these boards, but that response from him seems to be more than a little fast on the trigger and uncalled for. That's all I'm saying.
 
I can see that side of it for sure, Ryan. I tend to think the moderator's action here was, in all honestly, to try to protect the OP from…well…himself. Ryan has extensive experience with these lenses, which are more expensive than just about any camera most of us shoot with. The idea of someone who isn't a lens tech opening up one of these lenses certainly makes my sphincter tight.

While the advice given by Mitch Gross really should be taken to heart by the OP, of course anyone who wants to open up and tinker with their own gear is welcome to. I'm just not sure it's the kind of encouragement we (as a collective forum) want to offer when none of us (to my knowledge) have the skills or experience to help if something were to go wrong.

Again, I'm only speaking for myself here, not any other mods or the management.
 
While Mitch's advice is wise and the proper thing to do for the vast majority of people, it shouldn't prevent others from sharing knowledge and exploring and learning on their own.

Mitch's post did not answer the OP's question. I don't expect AbleCine to share their skills with us, but that should not prevent others from sharing their own knowledge.


[edit] - Quoting Stephen " I'm just not sure it's the kind of encouragement we (as a collective forum) want to offer when none of us (to my knowledge) have the skills or experience to help if something were to go wrong. "

This is a very frustrating statement for me. The assumption that no one with the skills to work on the lens would share it. That's exactly what a forum is for. We know nothing about the posters or their skills nor their situation. So who are we to limit the flow of information or protect someone from themselves?
 
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The way I see it, it's his. If he wants to lob it off a bridge, more power to him. If he feels confident enough to try and fix his lens, well, that's his prerogative. For all we know, the gentleman that responded could very well be an engineer, or tech. But that was never given the opportunity to be seen. I get that Ryan has an enormous respect for all that goes into the making of a cinema lens. But why not give the guy an opportunity to prove himself? If he's willing to give it a shot, the most that can happen is he's out a lens, or he will have pay to have it fixed or replaced. Either way it's his business, and effects none of us. As far as DVXuser is concerned, I don't see any liability here, I mean people give advice on how to deal with clients, gear, financing, and moviemaking, all costly subjects. There can be a disclaimer explaining that it's a very risky move and that you dismantle at your own risk. That way there's one last warning to the brave sole that's willing to take the risk.
 
Ok I did see this thread for while but never expected it's about me.
I posted on the thread said something like "just do it if you think it's good for you and you will learn more from it"

Then my post disappeared as well !
Moreover, I think I saw a post that someone giviving experiences about fixing camera and lens. That one gone too


PS for Ryan Brown: I tried to give you a positive helpful vote but I clicked negative by accident don't know how to take that back. I am so sorry
 
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I am a bit confused. I am a junior member (in this forum) as the other two individuals with posts deleted. I like the site and have great respect for the owner/founder, moderators and regular users. I am not an active poster - trying to understand better the communty first.

When I saw this thread, the first thing I've done, once again I visited the forum guidelines
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/announcement.php?f=252
If the person with post deleted tells the truth, I do not see how possibly such post can violate guidelines. Can someone explain? English is my second language, perhaps I am missing something?

Secondly, are these guidelines for everybody including moderators? My assumption has been that the answer is yes. It would be great disappointment to learn that it's not true.
 
I have no PM or warning or explanation from moderator why my post should be killed ! Not sure how many posts have been deleted. I kept thinking about which part(s) of my post deserve to be censored but I think whoever showed opposite idea to the mod idea would be deleted.
 
Hey there.

Anyone who thinks taking apart a MasterPrime at home, with no experience and the wrong tools is wrong. That's not an opinion... that is a fact.

I guess I can try to explain what's up. So I deleted a couple comments and closed the thread because those particular comments were plain and simply the wrong advice, although granted bad advice is advice non-the-less... So in a free speech world, even terrible advice is advice and a very wrong opinion is an opinion. I usually respect that and would defend anyone's right to their opinion... however, these particular opinions were about to lead an obviously inexperienced and unknowing lens owner to further ruin or break his property.

Share knowledge? Yes that is what DVXuser is for. However, this is a very specialized skill, with specialized tools, and this was never the watering hole to even ask such advice. The better place would have been CML, and the reaction to this question there would have been explosive. Anyhow, DVXuser is a great place for pro-to-novice, but if we are to be honest with ourselves, likely only 5% of people on this site have ever even USED a MasterPrime, no less repair one. I would encourage those who were giving the ill-advice to further explain who they are and what credentials they have, or experience, to suggest that a complete novice, who has no idea what they are doing, open up a $22,000 lens, which boasts the arguably highest level of quality and tightest level of tolerances in cinema optics. You best believe those people were not Paul or Matt Duclos, Jonathan Maxwell, Stuart Rabin, Arturo Jacoby, Guy Genin or any other knowledgeable people who actually know how these lenses work and/or could repair a high quality cinema lens. These mentioned people, who do have this knowledge, are typically not on DVXuser (newsflash) and if they were would most certainly parrot what Mitch and I said in their own way.

Go ahead. Call Stuart at Focus Optics, call Guy at ZGC, call Paul at Duclos, Arturo at Clairmont, call any professional repair shop and ask. That is a much better bet than asking an often anonymous internet forum that specializes in AF-100's, GH2's and etc.

So there. Perhaps this will serve the most use. Call those professionals and ask them what they think about someone with zero experience or tools doing an at home repair job on a fragile and exacting instrument of optics. Outside of knowledge, there are tools needed to do these jobs outside of whatever eye-glass screwdrivers the average person has, so the obstacles and odds are stacked greatly against anyone who is not qualified to do so.

I can tell you my cinema lens knowledge perhaps exceeds 90% of those in this industry with the exception of the very small circle of people who are directly related to designing, repairing or manufacturing lenses. Read Mitch's post. I left it as the last word because it said everything I wanted to say, but more professionally.



So yes... I censored the internet. Not free thinking opinions on what lens to choose, what film is better, or what camera settings to use. I removed bad advice. Not just bad, but potentially costly and damaging. Advice that would have never been given by anyone who knew better.



I do feel bad that speech was smothered, but I did so because they potentially were going to lead someone to HARM very expensive and sensitive equipment.

Want my head? Take it. I'm not going to reverse my actions and you'll have to find another mod who will. Any of you with some professional background using professional cinema equipment surely understand that taking apart a master prime at home is a horrible idea. I'm not even sure what this thread is even about.

Pitchforks away, please.
 
Thanks for the explanation Ryan. No need for pitchforks. Hopefully, were all professionals or behave as such. We just wanted to understand your position.

[edit] - and criticism of a moderator's actions are inappropriate. We are guests and the moderators are the moderators.
 
I don't know if criticism is inappropriate, but there is a fine line of how you do it.

I probably went a little too far, too fast with the thread in question. But that's me... I'm a professional cameraman in LA. I work with these lenses and many others everyday (and own some, although not MP's) and I am a huge lens head. This struck home for me and I wanted to prevent unnecessary damage.

Regarding notifying the posters, I typically do every time, however this person (who started this thread) at the time had like 3-4 posts (he/she only has 5 right now and three are from this thread!) no picture, and not a real name. I don't sit at home and moderate 24/7, I am busy working on set... so it's hard for me to feel empathy enough toward a person who has no real name, no picture, 3 posts and one of those posts is insanely bad advice to take what little time i have at home and discuss things at great length.

Hope that makes sense. If an established contributor to DVXuser needs to be addressed, I do it everytime.

Also, I did this on my own accord. The forum rules are in place for good reason but they are not law. This is a privately owned forum so everything is a subjective call by moderators. I made one, as a section moderator, without consulting the main mods or anyone else and I stand by it. In my opinion, just because one doesn't technically break one of the rules, that doesn't mean one can encourage inexperienced people to damage their equipment. That was my thought.
 
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Sure seems like some folks in this thread just anticipate the worst possible outcome and are ready for pitchforks.

Mods are folks just like many of the members in this forum. Sometimes, we make judgement calls. On the one hand there is a lot of complaining about the noise of the forum. On the other hand, *any* moderation is often met by *someone* as censorship, etc, etc.

If the helpful posts feature got used a bit more, it really makes our jobs easier. In fact, one of the main motivations for it was to attempt to allow the community to help steer the discussion, and filter out some of the less-desirable noise that were posts that didn't necessarily break any rule but were unhelpful, or more personal than substantive. In other words, helping us to not have to make as many judgement calls.

With regards to this post, my initial inclination was that the deletion was perhaps a bit premature. But, to be honest... just try to look at it from Ryan's perspective. He has taken great effort to make the Cinematography forum be a more organized, useful, and active place. (and, just to remind some folks) He has done this of his own free choice strictly as a volunteer.

Now, I might have at least posted a "DO IT AT YOUR OWN poo pooING RISK" rather than a deletion of the two posts in question. From past experience, however, as I run through those options in my head, I know that initiating that debate has a strong likelihood of sending the thread off the rails and folks are just arguing the point of to repair or not to repair, rather than directly addressing the o.p.'s question... the valuable advice ends up getting lost in the mix of yet another thread of back and forth.

So, as I'm reading the thread and I come across an anonymous user with only a few posts *casually* encouraging the cracking into of a $20k lens, I get a little concerned about it as well.

So, the first of the two posts Ryan deleted was from someone who had just a few posts here and it reads:
Hey mate, PM me I can give you some advise but not exact same lens as yours.
It's not surgery, no one will die. You will learn more and not many people will see and know what you will know.

"you never try, you never know". This is how they land on the moon
Click to expand...

No offense, intended to the original poster, but under those circumstances, that seems like really bad advice from an unknown member. There is no way to know if this poster is a master cracker of lenses and could genuinely walk the o.p. through it via pm, just a troll picking at what he thought was a dumb question, or if he is someone who opened up a $50 lens once, or read some stuff on google; and the o.p. (whose skill level we don't know anything about) possibly ends up taking his advice, cracking his lens open and putting himself in a world of hurt. There are many casual readers, and people who find this forum looking for an answer to a question via search engines. And, sometimes, people randomly ask questions about cracking open a 20k lens with no context what-so-ever.

There is a big difference between that and someone coming in who is known as a lens cracker or repair person, and says he can help you. It is a risky perception to have out there that hacking a 20k lens is no biggie.

Ideally, the post would have gotten voted down, or someone would have respectfully shot it down and the discussion could have continued unhindered. Though, experience tells me that is not often the case. So, I don't fault Ryan for his choice. Reading through the thread myself, it is likely that I would have opted to delete the post as well, depending on the day. Ideally, he should have pm'd and that is the general policy we try to follow. but I don't fault the guys for not doing it *all* of the time, particularly on general housekeeping that doesn't necessarily require disciplinary action, and (therefore) dialogue. That might sound a little harsh, but they are all working and living their own lives, too. Sometimes we loathe that every single moderation action on the internet requires personal attention, care, and thorough explanation. And, sometimes we send that pm and you end up with a literal mental case stalking you for the last 9 months outside of the forum. And, that kind of bulls*%t for us can (and has) begin with a genuine attempt to reach out to someone in an effort to help them. So... sometimes we prefer the path of least resistance in trying to maintain this, privately held, privately run, resource. We do it in an attempt to best walk the line of allowing open exchange and promoting the most useful resource possible.

In a perfect world, it is our forum to run how we see fit, we'd never make mistakes, and 100% of our members would love us. Of course, it wouldn't be much of a forum if we ran it to the ground, as we rely on the contributions of the community as a whole. and, (in the general sense) the same goes for not wanting a very active, vocal minority of the membership base to drive the quality of contributions into the ground either (I am not meaning to insinuate that either of the posters in the original thread are in that group. Just speaking generally at this point). But, on a set, there is a hierarchy. It is also a collaborative process. Much like this forum. Sometimes there are issues, and often they can be resolved with no one ending up butthurt about it. If they can't, or you decide you don't like the person, or the boss, or the co-workers, then... there are other forums that might suit your needs better. No biggie. Ideally, it's good when folks can respect the house rules, and every single action on our part doesn't require a 1 hour exchange with a user. Sometimes, you might have an issue or a question about an action, and that is totally cool. There are good ways to bring it to our attention (pm, or create a reported post/profile so we all know about it, can discuss it and get back to you).

So, sometimes we make judgement calls. Sometimes, they are good ones, sometimes not so good, but they are judgement calls, and... unfortunately... I think judgement calls are a part of the job. We have to make them sometimes. And, I trust the mods judgement as a group. Sometimes we are wrong, and we aren't afraid to admit it and change course. Sometimes we change course b/c it is inconsequential to us, and we didn't realize it would be such a big deal to others.

But, our mods run the gambut from student filmmakers to emmy award winners and more... Just like our membership base. They are representative of (and promoted from) the diverse group that congregates here. And, I think (before you pull out the pitchforks) if you opt to send a polite request for clarification, you will find that we're all generally pleasant folks who will be happy to assist you. We may change our minds on reflection, or, we may not. But, we don't moderate with our emotions. It's not personal. (we don't want it to be personal for you either) Mods that do, aren't a good fit for our mod team (but, that is certainly not the case here), and that's nothing personal either. Just pick your battles. If there is something you think was genuinely wrong and it's removal or closure was detrimental to the forum, we'll be happy to take a look at it. Just shoot us a line. We do tend to get a little turned off when our first contact with someone is accusatory (but, that is from past experience) :)

All of that said... Will be happy to re-open the thread and allow discussion to continue if there are folks that think something more can be contributed to the discussion. Just let me know.

EDIT: Oh, and please remember... it is impossible for us to censor you... We only own this one, tiny little corner of the internet. But, it is our space, and it does cost a lot of money to maintain (hence why we have sponsors), and it is a business. But, we have never charged our members for access to this resource, or for entry into free online film festivals that have had $25k dollar prize pools. and, we don't indiscriminately slap advertisements in every open space we can find... and we never wil. But, we do get to run it how we want as our right :) That doesn't mean we aren't open to feedback, input, and change, though.
 
Let it stand as is. While I was delighted to see the thread and where it might go, I also don't care to have things kicked back and forth. A decision was made, its basis was sound, we move on.

That being said, there are people like me that like to know how everything works. There is almost nothing I don't want to take apart to learn how it works. Its a disease many of us have.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmYDgncMhXw
 
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