Music Question

throoper

throoper

Member
I searched, and couldn't really find anything.

I'm curious what's the rules on using music in a short. Say I want to use a piece of music by Beethoven, or Bach. What's the rules on that?

Also what if I want to use a piece of music from my friends' band in the short I do? Would I just need them to sign a music release form?

The short wouldn't be sold. It's for my portfolio for school.

Sorry, I'm not really fimiliar with it.

Thanks for any help.

- Matt
 
Some help

Some help

There's two types of copyright available for a recorded work in the US. Performance and writing.

Most classical music has fallen out of written copyright scope, so anyone is free to use those songs for any new recordings they may make.

The Seattle Symphony (for example), however, owns their performance of the song. So you'd need to check with them prior to using their work. Get something written, not via email. A regular letter would work, but make sure it's from the copyright holder. If you have a signed letter from Brittney Spears saying it's OK to use her songs, you have nothing - she doesn't own the written or performance copyright. The record label does.

If you get a written copyright license, but not a performance license for a Brittney Spears song, you would still need to record someone else singing the song, since the actual performance of that song is not licensed to you.

That's the serious stuff, out of the way. Now, to answer your question. School portfolio? Nobody gives a crap. You're in no danger as you're just some student, with no money, doing this for educational purposes. However, if you want to be free and clear, I'd suggest the following:

* Check out Magnatune.com. They have all sorts of stuff, all available under various Creative Commons licenses. Those licenses allow for educational, not-for-profit, and non-commercial use. It's a pretty broad term, and their licensing department responds to emails quickly if you think you're on shady ground. I've used Magnatune quite a bit.
* Use the Creative Commons Search Engine. It'll link you to a wide number of CC licensed works.
* Check out MySpace. There's a bazillion bands on there, and if you email them and say "Non-commercial" it translates into PROMOTION for them. Make sure they get a line in the credits, and they're pleased as punch.
* If your friend's band is unsigned, they own their copyright. Ask him to sign a napkin or something giving you rights to use that song recording however you like, for ever, and you're set.

Extra credit trivia: Songs are considered copywritten in the US as soon as they're either performed or written. It's a wierd legal assumption. To PROVE that the above occurred, though, is another story. The US copyright office will take your recording, stiffly, after you fill out a 1 page form and pay $20. A better way? Mail a copy to yourself and never ever open it. It's federally stamped, has a date stamp on it, and sealed and sent to yourself. And it's a lot cheaper. Just don't open it, even if you're in a pinch :)

ralph hogaboom
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
ralph.hogaboom.org/films
 
ralphhogaboom said:
Extra credit trivia: Songs are considered copywritten in the US as soon as they're either performed or written. It's a wierd legal assumption. To PROVE that the above occurred, though, is another story. The US copyright office will take your recording, stiffly, after you fill out a 1 page form and pay $20.
Click to expand...

-Copyright is now 45$.

ralphhogaboom said:
A better way? Mail a copy to yourself and never ever open it. It's federally stamped, has a date stamp on it, and sealed and sent to yourself. And it's a lot cheaper. Just don't open it, even if you're in a pinch :)
Click to expand...

-This is a fallacy. It will typically NOT work. EXAMPLE: I can send myself a bunch of open envelopes through the mail service. Should I find something I like, I can then put it in and envelope and seal it. It would then be difficult for you to prove it is yours as my envelope has an old postage seal on it. Also should you prove the material is yours, you are NOT qualified to recieve any financial compensation. If you had properly registered your copyright with the copyright office you would then be entitled to monetary damages. Of course since the original poster is from a country other than the US they should check with the laws of that country. It is best to copyright everything before you put it out there for the public IMO.

As for the use of classical music, you could buy some royalty free music off one of those clearance houses.

:thumbsup:
 
throoper said:
I searched, and couldn't really find anything.

I'm curious what's the rules on using music in a short. Say I want to use a piece of music by Beethoven, or Bach. What's the rules on that?

Also what if I want to use a piece of music from my friends' band in the short I do? Would I just need them to sign a music release form?

The short wouldn't be sold. It's for my portfolio for school.

Sorry, I'm not really fimiliar with it.

Thanks for any help.

- Matt
Click to expand...


hey Matt. if you really want good legal advice on music clearances, you gotta go to the legal experts. music is something you just gotta clear.

http://www.musiodata.com

Sandy is awesome.
 
Thanks for clarification

Thanks for clarification

@Cryogenic:

Thanks for the clarification. I read that in some copyright book back in college, and always assumes that the Poor Man's Copyright was legit. In particular, this is a pretty solid explaination why.

ralphhogaboom
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://ralph.hogaboom.org/films
 
In relation to the original question: if you want to use some classical works that are in the public domain but don't want to pay for performance rights, midi can work quite well. You need good synths and full orchestral pieces will almost always sound horrible but smaller chamber music scores can actually be quite good.

I have actually slipped a few of those in some movies and no one knew the difference.

Cheers
 
throoper said:
I searched, and couldn't really find anything.

I'm curious what's the rules on using music in a short. Say I want to use a piece of music by Beethoven, or Bach. What's the rules on that?

Also what if I want to use a piece of music from my friends' band in the short I do? Would I just need them to sign a music release form?

The short wouldn't be sold. It's for my portfolio for school.

Sorry, I'm not really fimiliar with it.

Thanks for any help.

- Matt
Click to expand...

Hey Matt, what's the timeframe you're looking at? When are you looking to do the score? Is it for the horrorfest or for something else? I'd be willing to help you out if it's classical and if it's after October. Let me know.
 
ralphhogaboom said:
* If your friend's band is unsigned, they own their copyright. Ask him to sign a napkin or something giving you rights to use that song recording however you like, for ever, and you're set.

Extra credit trivia: Songs are considered copywritten in the US as soon as they're either performed or written. It's a wierd legal assumption. To PROVE that the above occurred, though, is another story. The US copyright office will take your recording, stiffly, after you fill out a 1 page form and pay $20. A better way? Mail a copy to yourself and never ever open it. It's federally stamped, has a date stamp on it, and sealed and sent to yourself. And it's a lot cheaper. Just don't open it, even if you're in a pinch :)
Click to expand...

I don't want to pick on you because you have many of the correct concepts in the post but there needs to be clarification for safety sake. First let me start out by saying that no one should be taking legal advice on line. Layman have a limited understanding about legal concepts so something that applies to a case they were involved in does not usually apply in its entirety to anothers issue. This is a very fact based area of the law and new case are clarifying the law all of the time.

Having said that, there are some hard and fast rules. Songs are not copyrighted as soon as they are performed as stated above. Copyright law only protects the "expression of an idea that is fixed in a tangible form." If the song is written or recorded it would be a valid copyright, not performed.

The mail it to yourself rule, as stated by another poster, is dangerous folk law that won't die. In Holland to get around this you can go to the customs bureau and have every page of your work stamped officially with the date and time and then mail it to yourself, but why go through the trouble. Registering your copyright gives notice to the world that the work is indeed yours. It is simple to do an inexpensive. It is sadly one of the few places where our federal government shines so take advantage of it.


Contract law is complex and the idea of using a napkin for any contract gives me the chills. The law is replete with examples of disaster insuing from one of these cocktail napkin contracts. Just don't do it. You may or may not have a valid contract, but the terms are then subject to great debate. Inevitably these are made over a few beers and alcohol can vitiate an agreement. The above example would first be attacked for lacking consideration. (both parties must give up something, i.e. an exchange of promises)

As for a student, "if a tree falls in the woods ..." You better be sure you are only showing it to friends and family on the wall of your living room and perhaps to your teacher for a grade. I always recommend "Clearance and Copyright" by Michael C. Donaldson, when this subject comes up. It is written in terms most anyone can understand and was taught in the entertainment course at my law school. There are helpful boilerplate releases as well that you can use; but take the time to speak to an attorney. Most states have free or inexpensive non profit legal services for artists. Also clearance houses are well worth the money if you plan on looking for distribution where you are required to have a clean chain of title.
 
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Not feeling picked on at all. I'm new here, but like what I see, and didn't see any pros answering Throoper so thought I'd kick the thread up with what I did know. I'm the kind that appreciates the right answer, period.

Thanks for clarifications, and citing further reading!
 
bosindy said:
As for a student, "if a tree falls in the woods ..." You better be sure you are only showing it to friends and family on the wall of your living room and perhaps to your teacher for a grade.
Click to expand...


I would amend slightly. Use for your reel, or portfolio or school is just not going to be an issue. Not saying that it would be legal but in practice it's not going to be a problem. However that is ALL you will be able to use it for. I would get the clearances because the odds are that you are going to want to be able to do more with it, like enter it in film festivals, put it on your web site etc. Plus it's a bad habit to get into.
 
Interesting thread, they make the point that copyright infringement does not require the offending party to profit. Profitability though would not go to legality but to remedy. Damages are easy to figure out when someone is profiting (compensatory), but what if no one profits (yet commercial use)? Well there is injunctive relief, usually given preliminarily without a hearing on the facts. The song is then removed and then you're on your way. But more and more, courts use a statutory remedy ($ minimum) in cases where no damages can be ascertained. Yet another reason to register your copyright BTW because statutory damages would not be available to those who do not register, yet have a valid copyright.

Will they go after some 16 yr old girl for using a U2 song on her myspace page, probably not, at least I hope not, even if she is selling something on the site, but you really never know. I worked on a case in NY with an attorney that, on a different case, represented a bar in Brooklyn called the "Brooklyn Dodger." The Dodger organization in California and MLB sued this little bar in Bayridge over the use of the name. (trademark, but same principle) It shows that no crumb is too small and it's all highly fact specific.
 
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Cryogenic Filmworks said:
-Copyright is now 45$.



-This is a fallacy. It will typically NOT work. EXAMPLE: I can send myself a bunch of open envelopes through the mail service. Should I find something I like, I can then put it in and envelope and seal it. It would then be difficult for you to prove it is yours as my envelope has an old postage seal on it. Also should you prove the material is yours, you are NOT qualified to recieve any financial compensation. If you had properly registered your copyright with the copyright office you would then be entitled to monetary damages. Of course since the original poster is from a country other than the US they should check with the laws of that country. It is best to copyright everything before you put it out there for the public IMO.



:thumbsup:
Click to expand...

Actually, it will work. There was a court case over copyright infringment, and the person who was suing had mailed themselves a copy of their music, and the date of the postmark help up in court. Everyone does it. It's not really a copyright as much as it is proof that you recorded something by a certain date.

-Dave
 
Dave,

Your right that it kinda maybe will help. But it's not a copyright and you may be limited to just stopping someone from continuing to use your song. So you pay an attorney to get a cease and desist order and they go OK. You just payed a lot and got back nothing, well no money. And unless you use some sort of certified mail where the sticker goes over the flap you could get into very weak territory. If all you want is proof that you created X on some date go get it stamped by a notary. It's cheaper than certified mail, or about the same, and that will hold up in court. But again I don't think you can get any $ unless you have an actual copyright.
 
Dave, this may be so, but I wouldn't because:

1) Notice: When you register you are telling the world "beware, I own this." It discourages possible use.

2) Cost: You may very well win, but I think you would be inviting litigation. It would only be evidence that there possibly was a copyright created on a specific date. It's not dispositive of anything because the validity of the method would be challenged as well as the adhesive. This would increase lawyer and possible expert costs defending this choice. And I think we are trying to save $40 here?

3) Remedy: There are Statutory remedies that may apply only if you register.

4) Unprofessional: When a distributor says he/she likes your film and wants to buy it, you will need to provide a clean chain of title. Are you going to tell him/her, "the script is in this envelope, I swear, but you can't open it, trust me." I would be running for the exit. (I realize this is a script example where this method is more common)

Jim
 
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If it's a script you might just register it with the WGA, that doesn't cost much and should have most of the benefits of copyright, poss even more. It's certainly better than mailing it to yourself.
 
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