Music for a shortfilm

W

WatchOut

New member
Hello,
I am making a shortfilm for the first time in my life - I am in contact with a composer, but I am unsure of how to direct him. I don't feel I know enough about music in movies, when is music proper for the movie? And what kind of music? How do you guys direct your composers?

I hope you can help me.

Thank you
 
ok, i'm looking for the same information (essentially).

I have searched a lot and can't come up with information outside technical tutorials/issues/information. Most results are either software tutorials, music software, or soundtrack information.

The one thing i did find was an article titled "Musivisual Language". It states:

Musivisual Language is a special language of music placed in film and from film, understood not only from structural point of view, rhythm and sound-material, but also from the relationships and meaning semiotics in relation to the close interaction with the image and plot.
—Román, 2008: 84
Click to expand...

That's what I'm looking for, as are you (I assume). However, this is a very new and technical term for what it is. There has to be information on this type of thing, and searchable with a simpler/more traditional term.

If I knew what to look for (term), I'd have no problem researching and posting information.



cheers.




PS: I've asked this before in the Audio section, but I think it's more technical focused. link
 
My 2 cents

My 2 cents

If you are just starting out I think these tips will help you.

You can't expect to learn everything about music without a long time of study and learning to play and instrument or something similar. What you can do is learn the basic terminology. Basically the fundamentals of music.
-Keys (Minor/Major)
-Tempo (speed)
-Beat (period of time in a given tempo)
-Crescendo and Decrescendo (rising volume/falling volume)

These basics, and many others, will make it so you can give some technical direction without looking stupid or getting embarrassed at your lack of composing experience.

But, what you should focus on, as a director, above all other things is the mood you want to create in a scene. This can be a musical representation of what a character is feeling or what you want the audience to feel if it is different from the characters on screen. Music is by far the best way to manipulate your audience. So, focus on what you want your audience to feel and describe that to your composer. You will have to rely on him/her to be able to take your direction but that is their job. It may be hard, particularly if the composer is new to. Giving direction and taking direction are both skills that take time develop and refine.

Hope this helps and that you find some items of use here. Feel free to ask additional question if you have any though I am no expert director myself yet :) but I have made a good man shorts and a feature.

Good luck and let us know how it turns out!

JP
 
thanks for the tips, JP.

i agree getting a musician is best. but from a directing perspective, as you said, it's important to evoke emotion. this is done with music/imagery/editing. figuring out how to put them together is key.

i'm trying to analyze particular scenes with an edit and sound that i think are interesting. what i'm trying to find is how a director comes to music/sound decisions.

i suppose it's all dependent on the situation/scene.

those terms will be a great help in my search.

thanks again.
 
Hey WatchOut (and Fahad again!)

Yeah, this is a big issue. Like the other thread Fahad started, I'll start my comments with "us film composers are taught about this in film composer school!" We're taught the whole process of developing music for film that has been established since the 1930s, and we're taught what's expected of us, etc.... but we're also told that the film schools aren't teaching the filmmakers their part in it! We're warned that filmmakers might be intimidated and confused by the process because it's the part of their own film that they may understand the least, and have to trust someone else with. Scary!

Check what I said in the other thread Fahad linked to about the three basic functions of film music. That'd be the first step. What does the music need to DO in your film? Why is it there, how can it help? You don't need music just for the sake of music. You need to consider its function. Unless you're well-educated about music yourself, it's best not to try to speak in musical terms to your composer. Talk in terms of the function of the music, the emotions it should evoke, etc.

If you do have a rough idea of the kind of music you like, of course provide examples. I did a student short in December that was one of my best experiences. The director talked first generally about what he wanted the music to do in the film, then gave me links to three cues from other films that were all different, but sort of showed the range of the music he thought could work in the film. Thankfully, he didn't want an imitation of any one of those tracks. I did one quick draft on the main titles that he rejected, because I latched too much on the quirkiness of one of the sample cues and one of the characters. Then he told me, "no, give it more of a slower, lighter, fairy tale type feel." Okay, I got it. I did one more rough draft of the titles and he loved it. Then we were off and running, doing the rest of the film in a similar style. There was one scene that I originally thought needed strong music to keep it going. He said, no make it subtler there. So I stripped out some instruments and simplified the remaining parts. In other cases, I did things he didn't expect, but did like. Building that trust to give and take is very important! And that's why he's come back to me for his next film. :)

Really, that's it - communication and trust. It'll be a steep learning curve at first, but just do your best to communicate what you want the music to do for your film. If it's not doing what you want it to, do your best to communicate how and why. I could also tell you about my one worst experience doing film music, which was with people who absolutely couldn't communicate at all, but I'll skip that for now!

Does that help?
 
Filmbuff28 said:
You can't expect to learn everything about music without a long time of study and learning to play and instrument or something similar. What you can do is learn the basic terminology. Basically the fundamentals of music.
-Keys (Minor/Major)
-Tempo (speed)
-Beat (period of time in a given tempo)
-Crescendo and Decrescendo (rising volume/falling volume)

These basics, and many others, will make it so you can give some technical direction without looking stupid or getting embarrassed at your lack of composing experience.
Click to expand...

As a composer myself, I would actually advise AGAINST this. If you try to just learn a few terms on a surface level, there's too much chance of getting something wrong and causing more problems! On Minor/Major, I'd rather a director told me sad/happy. You don't need to search for the word "tempo" or "beat," you can just tell me "fast" or "slow." You don't have to know the word "crescendo," you can just tell me, "have the music get louder here."

Composers actually tell horror stories about when directors tried to talk in musical terms and everything went wrong, so if your goal is not to be embarrassed, then don't try unless you're very comfortable with it. :)

But I agree with the second half of what you wrote, JP. Talk about emotion and the role the music plays.

OH - and one huge thing I left out that really needs a whole article is about "spotting the film." Traditionally, that's sitting down with the composer, music editor, other interested folks depending on the production, and literally go through the whole film, deciding where music goes and what it's function is. The music editor will put together a document with SMPTE start and end times for every cue, and notes about the music. That's what the composer works off of, and helps the director and editor properly place the music in the film. On very short shorts this is less of an issue, but usually I'll insist on some version of this process once the film gets to 10 minutes or so. The simplest version is just, "we'll start some fast action music right when he pulls out the gun and stop it right when the last bad guy hits the ground" or something like that. But getting more detailed can be very handy, again, especially the longer and more complex the film is. If I'm working long distance/online, I'll normally at least email a rough version of a spotting sheet with start and stop times for different cues in order to have that discussion with the director before I get into the real composing work.
 
One more post! Here's a link to a pdf of the rough spotting notes for the pilot webisode of 'Jamal and Rome' that I scored for dvxuser member MrSeth last year. Hopefully this will be a useful bit of info on the normal process of working with a composer. It's the standard way of organizing everyone's thoughts and keeping a project on track.

http://www.randingraves.com/JandR_Spotting _Notes.pdf

At the left you've got the cue number. Traditionally, in film, you'd have 1M1, 1M2, etc., with the first number being the reel. Next, you've got a title for each music cue. Next, the type - score as in background score versus source, which is something from an onscreen source, like a car radio. Then length of the cue, then start and stop times. Next, cue details is something from the film that cues the start and stop of the music. Then a description of the scene and/or music which can be of varying detail. Like I said, this one was very rough, but what you'd often see is a column for the scene in a bit more detail, and a column for the music describing what it will be and what its function is. In this case I was very brief!

On a big project, you'd have a music editor making more detailed documents, a cue list, etc., but on a low budget project where you probably won't have a music editor, I'd say something like this is plenty.
 
randin said:
As a composer myself, I would actually advise AGAINST this. If you try to just learn a few terms on a surface level, there's too much chance of getting something wrong and causing more problems! On Minor/Major, I'd rather a director told me sad/happy. You don't need to search for the word "tempo" or "beat," you can just tell me "fast" or "slow." You don't have to know the word "crescendo," you can just tell me, "have the music get louder here."
Click to expand...

That certainly works too. I was only saying that a director needs to learn about all facets of the process, including music. Imagine a director not knowing what a "L cut" was or what a "pan or tilt" was. Knowledge is power and the more you learn the better you will become. I wasn't meaning to say "If you learn these terms you can direct a composer". It is just a good idea for a first time director to start learning these things that way he/she can make decisions and know what they want and how to express it.


randin said:
Composers actually tell horror stories about when directors tried to talk in musical terms and everything went wrong, so if your goal is not to be embarrassed, then don't try unless you're very comfortable with it. :)
Click to expand...

I agree with you that this is a problem sometimes. I have heard stories too :) But these problems are caused by directors who don't know what they want. So they cover it up with all that they think they know (which isn't much). And the composer, taking the direction to the letter, does what is asked of him and the director, inevitably, won't like it because even he doesn't know what he wants.

This is tough for composer's, no doubt. But a good director needs to know their limitations and in particular what they do not know or understand about the process yet. That way he can tell a composer "you know this is my first time spotting a film for music, I would really appreciate it if we take it slow for a bit and you can help me learn and better understand how music is created for film". I've done that before and there is no shame in having an urge to learn about things you don't know.

So, the moral of the story is. A good director needs to know his own limitations and get help when he needs it instead of covering naivety with a couple vocab words with a lot of syllables :)

randin said:
OH - and one huge thing I left out that really needs a whole article is about "spotting the film." Traditionally, that's sitting down with the composer, music editor, other interested folks depending on the production, and literally go through the whole film, deciding where music goes and what it's function is.
Click to expand...

YES!!! (with 3 "!'s" for emphasis)
So vital especially for a newer director coupled with a more experience/knowledgeable composer. But, if a director is going to make it work you need to know what you want. At least know the mood and whether or not the music will follow the action or a character or create it's own space. A director should know this for every minute of his/her film. And talk to your composer. If he is experienced he will have some great input which should be heard.
 
thanks a lot for the input, guys. it all makes sense, especially the trust/communication part.

good luck to OP with the short.
 
Thank you so much for your replies - it really has helped alot! I have learned a lot I'll get back to you as soon as this is finished in a couple of days :) But as you have mentioned, the most important tool is to know what you want as a director - trust the composer and let him/her do the work that they are best at, and you too. Communication is the key, and talking about which feelings and mood, or function of the music as you said.

Thank you!
 
Hey! I don't like that list! ;)

I'd suggest to look first to regular contributors like Justin or those who joined recently (ahem) and wrote a lot of useful stuff on this and another thread (who's that, I wonder?) as opposed to a few people on that list who just popped in and said, "i want to be on the list." I think that list should be left for that fest rather than referred to as a sort of master list of composers around here.

That is all. :)
 
:)
Thank you for the list, but I have already found a composer, who I am more than satisfied with! I'll definitely take a look when I am in need of one for my next short film :)
 
Hello.
I have composed some movie music, and the way I do it is very simple. When I am watching a movie, and it has a similar scene as the one I am making music for, I ask myself what kind of feelings that music evokes. When I watch a scene, and I think to myself, "sweet, that was awesome", I try and replicate that feeling with my own music. In can be pretty hard, but, as always, practice makes perfect. Another idea you might try, is if there is an action sequence, put a techno song over it. It will kinda fill the viewer up with adrenalin, and get their heart pumping, just as the scene should.
 
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