multitrack possibilties?

L

Ldogg

Active member
I am filming a travel documentary that could be synonomous with the recording situation on say...MTV's Road Rules... We have the whole eight people (talent) and we will be traveling around in a wheelchair accessible RV. Picture lots of field travel with no power sources (National parks, ext...) Here is my question.

We will have all eight talent wired with a Sennheiser EW112 wireless lav system. We want to then feed the signal into a multitrack hard drive. I am considering getting the BOSS 1600CD that has eight simultaneous recording XLR inputs. I am asking for critiques on this system (we have intentions of festival release) but my main question is can anyone recommend a good portable battery sytem being that the 1600cd requires outlet power. The speks are DC in, 12 volts, 3.6 amps, center +, ring -. I am new to the realm of sound and trying hard to learn. How do pro's record sound in a small intimate set up in the middle of no power land? Preimptive thank you's to all.
 
That thing sounds really cool. A little pricy but probably worth it. I am having trouble figuring out how battery powered it is (how long, how heavy, how expensive is another one). Also, how does it compare to the boss 1600cd. I realize it is top of the line, but why exactly is it 9,000 bucks better. Have you ever used one personally? I followed your links and it seems like you really no alot about audio Oleg. Was also wondering if you aprove of the wireless system we are thinking about using. Thanks
 
Well, the boss 1600cd is not a production machine. It would be totally impractical for what you are doing. You can't throw it over you shoulder, which is what you are going to need to do if you are "road rules style". I would go with a deva V on this one. You have 8 discreet ins, plus an additional 2 tracks for your mixdown. It can run off of a lithium ion NP style battery for 4-5 hours. The 1600cd will require AC. The Deva V is expensive, but well worth it, and an absolute necessity for this type of thing.

-Dave
 
Thanks for the tip. I think I will go with the Deva 4. You say the Diva 5 though? Do you think the extra mixdown tracks are imperative. We will simultaneously back all the audio onto a mirroring drive so couldn't we figure a way to mixdown much later in post? We will have a long time until we actually get deep into post (a.k.a. more time to save money for such a task) We are actually taking a terminally ill child who has never left his county on a trip across america. The film is an attempt to put a face on Muscular Dystrophy and will follow the diseases entire course. The childs state is not that volatile that we wouldn't have a few years to figure out a mixdown strategy though. Does this make sense to you (the Deva 4 over 5)? Like I said I'm in way over my head in the audio world but I really don't want to mess this opportunity up.

Oh yeah. I was also wondering if recording on all eight tracks simultaneously would eat throught the battery quicker? Thanks again!
 
i wouldnt count on 112 in multyply mic situation , can couse allot of interfirence and shorting your range ( dont know how much range you have )
the lectro 200 would be much friendly to use -
you sad you tale the trip around us - be carfull each city has different usible channels so the mikes that good in one place might be dad in other - check exactly what are you planning to do and where

about running time of the deva , it doesnt change much with tracks
the internal battry is for 3-3 hours , you can add ext li-ion brick and extend the time 3,4 times more ( depends on the brick)
be sure if you are going to shoot with dvx or any other camera that have no tc -out or in make clear slates in the start of each day - the syncronization later with tc would be manually since yiou are running free run tc ( ofset ) , or you can run the tc link to your camera on one of the audio tracks ( the secend one would stay as audio referencwe)
if you are going with broadcast camera just jam the deva or the camera to each othetr , do the jam every time you change the battery since the int tc jenerator on cameras sometimes start to swim after power downs , if you with non broadcast cameras like dvx , just make new slate
memorty - the internal hd of deva could be themost 80gb , thats about 240 hours track in 16/48 khz or 160 oin 24/48
( thats leess ,since the space is less actually about 10% less )
so for 16/48 on deva 5 with 2 track mix down and isos , you have 22 hours of recording time . if you are running allot , just clean the hd to ext hd every day , for editting go down with 2 mix down only to save the space on your editing system
eventually if you are shooting and have the editor ( some kind of nleon laptop) , you can syncronize the all stuff in the end of the day with the 2 track mixdown)
now sine you are a new buy and dont swimm well on this , ill sudgest that you would look for expirienc audio guy whicjh did some kind of reality shows with deva - since that is not fiction and if you would f,up something there is no way to reshoot the moments.
nmy 1.5 shekels
i think that coffey knows almos about every deva that was sold in US - SO YOU CAN ASK DAVE FISK Tto point you to the closer user in your eria to check and impress from the recorder
 
Thanks Oleg. I'm working on a response to your post, but I want to make sure I get everything correct. I should have it up later tonight. In the mean time Dave Fisk, I live in Athens, GA. About an hour from Atlanta.... know any deva veterins there? Thanks

The quick take of our documentary is at Dariusgoeswest.com. It is a quick and optional read, I just thought it might give a good view of the situation I am up against, and provide a spring board for explicit advice. Thanks guys.
 
Took a look at your site and really like what you are doing. Darius seems like a great kid and it sounds like a awesome documentary. If you guys come thru the Northwest, let me know; I would be happy to help and/or point you in a useful direction.

I wish you all the best of luck.

Keep us posted on your progress. :)
 
Be careful what you wish for we may end up on your front porch before you know it! We are going through the Northwest and I'll keep the progress up. I've got good camera people involved but I am really apprehensive on this sound. I realize it is probably the #1 pitfall in the low budget independent world. The learning curve is pretty steep and I am at the bottom of it! That is why it is taking me so long to reply to Oleg. I have to decipher what he is really saying. Its the only way to learn though.

By the way Oleg, we are recording on two or three DVX100A's. We are also mounting a small Sony 3ccd camera on Darius's wheelchair to act as a "Darius cam" and show his perspective. He was really pumped when I told him he was the perfect dolly! Just letting you know in case that would change any of your advice. Thank you!
 
Ldogg said:
That is why it is taking me so long to reply to Oleg. I have to decipher what he is really saying.
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I think Babel Fish (http://world.altavista.com) needs a Oleg to English option. Just kidding Oleg, I struggle with the 1.5 lanuages I know. :)

To help decipher.

He believes the Senn 112 are not really up to professional quality standards and thinks you should look at Lectro 200. The limited range alone of the Senn is gonna present you with many issues.

You need to make sure the wireless you get will work in all the cities you are visiting; no conflicting channels. This will be difficult when visiting multiple large cities.

Buy extra batties for the Deva to cover you ass and you should be fine.

To stay in synch with the DVX you need to run free time on the cameras and Deva and slate from the Deva each day for synching. Or you could (since you are using DVX) send wireless TC signal to one of the audio tracks on each camera. This will not lock the audio and you will still get drift in long takes (as I imagine you will have in this style shooting).

You should probably record at 24/48 since riding levels in this type of shooting is quite difficult and the 24bit will give you some wiggle room. Problem is with 8 to 10 tracks you will be burning thru the internal harddrive just about every day. You will need to unload the audio on to an external HD at the end of each day.

Lastly, he suggests you look for a professional soundman with experience in shooting reality programs to help you since you only get one take when shooting real events. I agree with him if you can budget it. If not, at the very least you can find some excellent sound guys in Atlanta and ask them to be a consultant to your project. If you pay him day rate for a couple of days training, he can probably get you quickly up to speed on pitfalls to look out for and tricks to help you. Either way, you will need someone who's sole job is to take care of sound. One person monitoring all those wireless if gonna be a huge job.

Also, Dave Frisk (who posted up earlier and works at Coffey sound) will be a great resource in purchasing some of the equipment you will need and will (sorry to speak for you Dave) be more than happy to talk you thru getting start with the Deva.

BTW, I noticed the Deva V has a $1000 rebate at Coffey if you buy before the end of the month.
 
It is imperative you have some sort of mixdown. If you are going to edit the picture in Avid or FCP, you'll just load the mix track as a reference for your picture editor. You will then give all your isolated tracks to sound editorial, and they will use those as their master tracks to work from. Mixing your production tracks later on in post will take a lot of time, and cost money, which potentially cost more later on than the difference between a Deva IV and the Deva V. I would go with the V in this case.

Not to be the sales guy...but...there is a sale on the Deva V for the month of March only. It's $1000 the normal price. If you are really interested, contact me off group.

I don't know of any Deva users in the Atlanta area. I think Mike Filosa is around there, but I think he has a Deva II, not a Deva IV or V.

-Dave
 
Thanks for the translation Wabbit. I wish I would have checked the post earlier becuase I've been researching all these terms for a couple of hours. Interesting stuff, but hard to read in large doses!

I consulted one of the guys at B&H who recommended the Senn112 system. He went on and on about how senheisers answer to interference problems was having some 1400 channels to choose from. I'm not sure if channels was the correct word to use there but they have 1400 "somthings" that was supposed to allow us to get us far enough away from everyone (including TV stations and everything) that we wouldn't have a problem. He also seemed to think that the range would be sufficient. I can't picture the sound man ever being more than fifty feet away, if not most of the time only being three feet (cozy family in the RV!).

Do you know a good Lectro 200 site, so that I could save some surfing time. I looked around a little today to no avail, except for one site said the 200 series was about to be discontinued. Don't know how reliable that was. Do you? Will the lectra sort of be a solve all for the interference warnings you fellas have given me, or will it just be a bandaid for a few "big cities"?

As for the harddrive if I get the Deva I would Definately get that simultaneous mirroring machine that backs up the info at the same time that it records it. Then I wouldn't have to spend hours clearing and backing up the drive correct? The thousand rebate sounds divine but I'm already bustin buttons on the budget getting the Deva four, and extra batteries. How does this strategy sound.

Get the Deva four and neccassary additions for backing. Gaurd the back ups with my life. Then when we get back from the trip, have some time to save some money, we do the upgrade option from the 4 to the 5 wich isn't that much, and we mixdown from there.

Please feal free at any time to pump my logic full of lead. I really am trying to make the best purchase and I have made more progress talking to you guys these past few days than I had with weeks of research before that. Thanks!
 
Ldogg said:
Get the Deva four and neccassary additions for backing. Gaurd the back ups with my life. Then when we get back from the trip, have some time to save some money, we do the upgrade option from the 4 to the 5 wich isn't that much, and we mixdown from there.

Please feal free at any time to pump my logic full of lead. I really am trying to make the best purchase and I have made more progress talking to you guys these past few days than I had with weeks of research before that. Thanks!
Click to expand...


That still won't work. You are still having to do a mix later, which is a waste when you can do it on production. Just come with the extra thousand now and save the several thousands down the road....and the headache. You should definitely go with the Deva V for this project. It sounds weird, but at that amount of money, what's another thousand dollars.


Whenever I spend a large amount of money on something, I always try to make sure I do things right the first time, even if it costs a little more than I want, if it's going to save me hassle and cash in the long run. If you do the upgrade later, it's going to cost you $2000 plus the labor involved to do it. Not a wise decision, in my opinion when you can get it now for just $1000 more. That's $1000 you can put towards batteries, DVD media, food, gas, drugs...whatever.


-Dave
 
The Lectros won't cure the channel problem but are more versitile. The issue with the channels is that if you get a frequency block that is open in one city it might be crowded in another city. I would bet LA will be your biggest issue. Lectro has a TV frequency finder for most major US cities here. http://www.lectrosonics.com/cgi-bin/tv_form.pl

Your main issue with wireless is going to be distance. If you have multiple cameras going off in different directions then the sound mixer keeping in range of everyone will difficult at best. The Lectros have a much better transmitter range.

I realize your expenses for sound is probably more then you anticipated and that is one of the reasons it might be a good idea to just hire a sound guy with the right equipment. It really depends on how long this road trip is as to which will be the more frugal way to go. An idea, a lot of quick productions I have worked with do, is to purchase all the equipment they need (without going cheap on something that will burn them later) and then sell the equipment at the end of production for around 80 to 90 percent of their purchase price. Ebay is full of this type of equipment. I think Coffey even sells some used equipment.

So say you spend around $30,000 for your sound equipment then sell it when picture is complete and get $25,000+ back after you sell the equipment used. The Lectors shoud be easy to sell, I might even buy one or two when you are done. I am not sure about the Deva but i imagine someone would probably buy it in good condition for $8-9000.

Another point is you are gonna need at least one boom in addition to the wireless. You will meet people on the trip that you can't wire and will want to get their dialog too. That would be a 9th channel and another reason to go with the Deva V.
 
Thanks Dave and Wabbit. You guys give solid advice. Everyone is a salesguy sometimes Dave. Your a good one though. I am interested in purchasing a Deva 4....okay 5 dangit! (ha!). I hope you appreciate my interest in a lay away plan too though. My email is Logansmalley@aol.com. Shoot me a quick one so I can e-mail you back and talk business. I shouldn't be extremely busy tomorrow if it is a good time for you. Thanks again for the help.
 
the problem is not how many channels the g-2 have -30000 or 100000 , the problem is the reciever front regection while you are running 8 different chnnels ( all in the same 30 mh zblock)
The lectrosonics have much betetr regection the 211/411 ( the 201 is much less)
about channels -----
i dont sure in what i writw now but there are specific fq blocks that used for emergency comunication ( police ,fire departm ) i heard that people use these fq since they are frree of problems 99% of the time and they are the same in each city

check on lectrosonics site the chart of the avaliblr fq in your city , you would see where exacly thwy ese fq placwed ( block 29 , but im not sure)

check with lectrosonics about veniu system - the reciever is 19 inch rack frame with 6 recievers - but as i know people already adapted this to the bag ( it runs dc) by cutting the 19 inch wings and relocateing the recievers on the top

about deva5 - - it has only 4 pots for mix and only 8 analog ins
so for situation of more then 8 mikes and of course you need boom as well - you need analog to digital converter or aditionaal 2 to 1 mixer
dont know what would be the best for this - but even the simple one would work ( for 2 wierless , not for the boom) )
about the faders - thats problematic - usially people mix on outboard outside and send mix and prefder signals - in your case you would have to do some sort of scratch trackc - the zaxcom has external fader box f-but i dont sure theey sell it already , or you can try to mix with the touch screen faders on the board -
if zaxcom would relice the automatic mix down softwear until you would go for your trip that would save you allot of hassle
from what i see you have very complicated progect - with basicly one time shot .
do your self a faivor and involved soundperson find the best way to deal with .
if you need more data - you caqn contact Glen Sunders from ZAXCOM directly , he would glad to help you and point you , i also have some good bodies from the net qwho run deva5 so the can help you 2 , if you need their email contact me privetly
 
Thanks alot Oleg. I was actually counting one of the eight channels for the boom, so that makes 7 lavs, 1 boom, and two left over tracks for mixdown with the Deva 5. I talked to Dave a while the other day. He says you make a good bag for the Deva. Sounds interesting.
I checked out the lectros and I just simply can't afford them. Dave seemed to think that although the 112's weren't ideal they could work. Unless you tell me it is just foolishly impossible I think I will have to stick with them and save the serious cash.
Thanks for the contacts. I intend on contacting Glen Sunders, and I will also send you a private email soon to get an email for one of your online Deva users. Thanks again.
 
ANOTHER THING - I WAS CHECKING IF THE G-2 CAN ACSEPT SOME SORT OF DC ADAPTOR ( 16 to 3 v dounconverter) , that would save you allot of hassle change batteries every time in the recievers
befor you go check if you dont have any fq crossing and 3 rd harmomic frq problems
if you have some sort of of audio renal house in your eria which keeps at least 5-6 of that kind

dont know where are you going to buy but Dave can easily check it since he is running quit abig renting house
about the bag - i was involved in development and no more , this is not my company so i dont sell them - you can find the specifications on the Petrol site

about weal chear , you can place another mike near the camera and have anoter sourse of sound , you can place pzm or some miniature cardioid mike as schoeps ccm4 or audix 1440
the mikes which come with the g-2 dont worth to much you would have to replace it, the countryman emw or b-3 are very good for it price
 
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