Multiple wireless mics?

ExileOnTheMainStreet said:
i never had even one production in my life asked for separate tracks ( exclude music recording) as a main recording , usually in real life ( not so armature films that you have all the time in the world to play on your computer) no one like to remix soundmixer mix from the field if it acceptable . only if something goes wrong the editors open the isos . time is money and if it wasn't like that the sound mixer profession was blowed with the wind and we were replaced by idiots who can record everything separate for the future mix in the post .
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I'm doing a production that will require stereo music recording and two mics. I think if finally decided to go with the 100B over the Z1U.

The easiest solution I could come up with was the two mics on one camera and the stereo music on another, which also gives me a second camera angle.

I could probably get just an audio recorder for the music, but then i have to deal with syncing and I'm pretty sure that the simplicty of useing two cameras outways the cost benefit of using one and a digital audio recorder.

Any thoughts?
 
if you go with proper levels to your cameras its fine , the problem is if you considering going straight with microphones you will not able adjust /amplify levels correct during the session ,
good mixer could give you much more freedom to do it correctly
so if the music comes from sound board you can go straight to the camera , if not and you need amplify the mics , ill much suggest good mixer with preamp direct outs straight to one camera and the 2 aditional microphones to another .
i checked the sony z-1 and found it much better camera then dvx sound wise for on board recording in dv mode ( no compression) .very clean signal
the camera take full 4db signals with out any problem , the manual adjusting of the camera preamps is also more then satisfied .
the signal from the headphones a little bit low ( even with 2v set up ) but still better then the **** coming from dvx
 
not more then 16-17 dbu maximum in line level on the analog side , the Sony live grate with 20
 
Mike,

Unless you are super experienced in two camera work, I think you will find that most shots will take longer to set up than doing two angles with one camera. You spend a lot of time making sure the other camera team isn't in the shot.

Hire a sound mixer to cover everything. You'll get (hopefully) better equipment and someone with the experience to get you the best sound possible.

Phil
 
Could you not use a simple four - channel mixer. The actors dialouge won't over lap, right? So in post you can cut it down to individual actors. If some lines do over lap just run the mic of the one actor on one main out of the board, and the actor that overlaps on the output.
 
overlaps is have nothing with number of mics ,.
the overlap is simply one actor is over the other when he is not in shot , sometimes the director likes the overlaps so you put another mic or open wierless to get him clean - thats also mixing or separating if you have 2 mics .
lets say you have 3 actors in front that you mix with 2 booms and you have one behind the camera , the 3 in shot can do what ever they like and overlap one each other but not overlap the not been shooten guy , lets say you like to hear him as well since there is no chance it will work without overlapping you put another mic and mix it with one of your front ones - no one run separate track for that since his voice is already overlapping in the front mic .so even you will record him good or maybe if it wouldn't cut nicely to his close up you will have to do adr to these who in front , there is no complete isolation on the sets and microphones herae every thing
 
ptalsky said:
Mike,

Unless you are super experienced in two camera work, I think you will find that most shots will take longer to set up than doing two angles with one camera. You spend a lot of time making sure the other camera team isn't in the shot.

Hire a sound mixer to cover everything. You'll get (hopefully) better equipment and someone with the experience to get you the best sound possible.

Phil
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2 cameras do save allot of time on complicated shotes , but thats always come on someone account - sound , lighting, ets .
if you use boom mic and still like run 2 cameras try make medium /close in dual shooting and leav the long for a single ,at least for the sound :-)
what i'm usially asking is that the long will be individual or at least the second will take details without people mouth :-)
for 2 direction shooting i can only pray that il get something usable with boom because the light settings , usially its just simple hell for every one - usially it happened with directors who trying to invent the weal
last year ate the **** like that for 6 weeks -
 
i think the future might just be separate tracks for each mic source.

it would give the most flexibility in the final mix

i feed the camera a mix with the boom always on the first/left channel and the rest on the right.

but on the digital recorder (744t) i send all four sources seprately whenever possible.

i do t his mostly because i can and because the 744t is a better recorder than any camera i've ever used.

as ffar as workflow, edit the footage get your picture locked and then bring in the sound from the cd that i burned with the 744t separate distinct channels saved in broadcast wave files.

the way you get 24bit 192k sound vs. whatever the camera could do.

but of course this is all for amateur actors and editors so we need a little extra help.

matthew
 
matthewd5 said:
i think the future might just be separate tracks for each mic source.


as ffar as workflow, edit the footage get your picture locked and then bring in the sound from the cd that i burned with the 744t separate distinct channels saved in broadcast wave files.

the way you get 24bit 192k sound vs. whatever the camera could do.

but of course this is all for amateur actors and editors so we need a little extra help.

matthew
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as far as it HD ( exclude the hdv) my mix from the camera -usially sony 900 going to the cinema ( directly from the avid omf -to dialog editor - no auto confirm )
The same if it 35mm from the 744 mix tracks
the 24 /192 ????- - you mast be kidding
 
I've been reading a lot of threads on this board and this one seems to be closest to my situation.
I'm shooting a documentary of a high school broadway musical review. The show is to be performed for 11 nights at the Edinburgh festival in Scotland. There are 40 perfomers on stage. We'll be shooting rehearsals, preperations and interviews in the States, then more interviews (outdoors and indoors) mini-perfomances outdoors and of course on stage performances.
I would like to record the best possible sound. I'm thinking stereo for the performances and also for the rehearsals. I don't know yet if we can patch into the sound board at the concert hall. Most shots will be with a MKH416 on camera and a wireless lav on the director. Does anyone see fundamental problems with this approach?
My question is how best to record the stereo and sync it with the video. It seems like there are a few options including a second camera (maybe this is the only option for a master/slave setup, but so far we're doing a one camera shoot) or using a 744t (add another $4K to the budget). The system would be best if it were light weight and compact (i.e. fit in carry on luggage with all the other gear). I'm still deciding on a good stereo mic option.

p.s. I also picked this thread so I can be properly abused by Oleg, since this is my first post.
 
do you work as a one man band or do you have soundman to support the shots ?
the gun mic on the camera doesnt give allot of interaction you like to catch between the people .
for the live performers /rehearsals you don't need ,any fancy recorder any dissent 2 channel (tascam/marantz ,fr-2 )can work for you without problem , you run the whale show( rehearsals) ,edit and replace the sound (keep the camera mics open for the match) .
par of good cardioid's or ms setup probably be fine (check the mbho mics - quit cheap ,excellent sound, the par of akg would do the job as well ) .
if you intend run house feed as well, you will need 4 channel recorder. be sure you get all the tracks since sometimes they give you outs which not contain everything .
you can use the recorder as kind of buffer between your 2 mics and the camera if you intend to work without mixer ,usually it is better even you run unbalance outs to the camera ( not on 744, its balance) , if you do it this way be sure send a return feed from camera headphones to check the camera get it (. if you use 744 for that perpes you can feed 3/4 as returns and check what going to the camera in simple way.
if it one time project - rent the equip -better rent it with sound man .
about abuse, i only abuse first time stupid question - sorry you don't fall in side that category ,but if you insist i can abuse you for your national team performers and the idiot who is coaching them ( i guess you are from the island) - tell me what kind of glue he was sniffing to bring that asshole Pieter Croutch play in offense :-)
 
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HAha, I think he's from the America though Oleg. said he'd be rehearsing in the states.

I don't know what glue he was sniffing, but when you're striker is made of glass..

40 Performers on stage? are you hoping to catch any dialogue? what kind of walls/floor is it, not a sprung dancefloor is it?
 
O **** ,will have to find a better one :-)
you are from the neighborhood aren't you ?
so maybe he can solve it nicely with a local :-)
 
well I hven't done a lot of stage stuff, i'm drama and doc (and music.)

It would probably be work i'd pass on to my collegue, a live sound engineer.
 
ExileOnTheMainStreet said:
do you work as a one man band or do you have sandman to
support the shots ?
the gun mic on the camera doesnt give allot of interaction you like to catch between the people .
for the live performers /rehearsals you don't need ,any fancy recorder any dissent 2 channel (tascam/marantz ,fr-2 )can work for you without problem , you run the whale show( rehearsals) ,edit and replace the sound (keep the camera mics open for the match) .par of good cardioid's or ms setup probably be fine (check the mbho mics - quit cheap ,excellent sound, the par of akg would do the job as well ) .
if you intend run house feed as well, you will need 4 channel recorder. be sure you get all the tracks since sometimes they give you outs which not contain everything .you can use the recorder as kind of buffer between your 2 mics and the camera if you intend to work without mixer ,usually it is better even you run unbalance outs to the camera ( not on 744, its balance) , if you do it this way be sure send a return feed from camera headphones to check the camera get it (. if you use 744 for that perpes you can
feed 3/4 as returns and check what going to the camera in simple way.
if it one time project - rent the equip -better rent it with sound man .
about abuse, i only abuse first time stupid question - sorry you don't fall in side that category ,but if you insist i can abuse you for your national team performers and the idiot who is coaching them ( i guess you are from the island) - tell me what kind of glue he was sniffing to bring that asshole Pieter Croutch play in offense :-)
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Thanks for the help. Yeah, there's usually just one of us, sometimes two.
So, if I just record the stereo audio of the stage performance/rehersal on a 2-channel deck (or 4-channel if I can get a board feed) I can sync the sound to match the camera sound later? Do I need to worry about timecode?
Do you recommend the modular mics from mbho or akg? I heard akg blue lines are going on sale soon.

ScoobySounds said:
HAha, I think he's from the America though Oleg. said he'd be
rehearsing in the states.

I don't know what glue he was sniffing, but when you're striker is made of glass..

40 Performers on stage? are you hoping to catch any dialogue? what kind of walls/floor is it, not a sprung dancefloor is it?
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Yes, we're from Seattle. I notice you're from Edinburgh. Maybe you can help advise on renting equipment (audio &/or 2nd camera) and possibly know someone who could help.
The performance is a Broadway musical review, all singing and dancing including tap dancing. However during the rehersals there is conversation between the director and actors. I can't get in too close 'cause there's a lot of activity. The director can wear a lav tho. The rehersal space is an empty auditorium with high ceiling most of the time.
 
there is no problem to synchronize with music without tc ( as long you run the rehearsals or shows completely), the best is to put the camera on free run , so when you lay down the material to computer you can figure easily where is the matching material , probably there will be small drift between 2 devices but it will bring you to the nearest point , from this point you can sync with your ear .
about mics - i referred to the 480 +61 not the blue line ( didnt work with blue line stereo setup except the figure of 8 with schoeps mk-4 which sounded quit nice) .hard to say, if you can rent and see what sounds better for you it would be the best .cant really say they both good for music recording .
check the edirol r-4, it make work for you as 4 channel recorder also you you can place 2 pzms on the stage to get more from the dancers during rehearsals
this way you will get the stereo image and 2 pzms from the stage to pick up the chorus line talk and shot gun + lav on the camera to catch stuff out of the stage and dyrector -
allot of work in post to find the matches if you dont use tc device but at least you will get it , better to .
there is soundman from seattle on tis board( wabit) ,maybe you cant hire him for the whall shooting but at least he can show you the proper way to deal with situation on location - you spend a llitle you get wiser -)
 
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I would be happy to help out in any way i can! I know plenty of facilities for video and audio hire in the area and people that could help out. there's a good chance I won't be needing my kit for the 2nd two weeks in august (since i'll be working at the film festival) so you could use my mics / radio mics and 744 if need be.

for video stuff www.hammerheadtv.com/
and for audio stuff www.warehousesound.co.uk/

the thing about this stage stuff though, : I went to a musical about a month ago and was dumbfounded at the stunning delivery of the sound, could hardly keep my mind on the story! There were many dancing singing performers on stage and all the vocals were flawless, and I coudn't even see the mics - reckoned they must've been planted in the hairline. No body movement, no attenuation as they turned danced and jumped, and even when they pulled clothing over their heads on stage.. I was in awe. I came away realising that I had a lot to learn, or that I should just stay away from stage stuff. :) stick to drama. Since then though I've learned a bit how this was achicved, but still wouldn't feel in my zone heading the operation.

Have you done rehearsals for sound?
 
ExileOnTheMainStreet said:
there is no problem to synchronize with music without tc ( as long you run the rehearsals or shows completely), the best is to put the camera on free run , so when you lay down the material to computer you can figure easily where is the matching material , probably there will be small drift between 2 devices but it will bring you to the nearest point , from this point you can sync with your ear .
about mics - i referred to the 480 +61 not the blue line ( didnt work with blue line stereo setup except the figure of 8 with schoeps mk-4 which sounded quit nice) .hard to say, if you can rent and see what sounds better for you it would be the best .cant really say they both good for music recording .
check the edirol r-4, it make work for you as 4 channel recorder also you you can place 2 pzms on the stage to get more from the dancers during rehearsals
this way you will get the stereo image and 2 pzms from the stage to pick up the chorus line talk and shot gun + lav on the camera to catch stuff out of the stage and dyrector -
allot of work in post to find the matches if you dont use tc device but at least you will get it , better to .
there is soundman from seattle on tis board( wabit) ,maybe you cant hire him for the whall shooting but at least he can show you the proper way to deal with situation on location - you spend a llitle you get wiser -)
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Thanks for the great advise. I like the idea of putting the PZMs on stage. The edirol seems a little big to travel with though. I was looking at the m-audio microtrack 24/96. It's only two channels, but it's small. Maybe I can use two and create an even bigger headache in post.
I think I'll talk to Wabit about too. I also just found out we have a guy who's going to help with sound. He's young with little experience but everything helps.
Looks like I'll have an excellent contact in Edinburgh as well!
 
ScoobySounds said:
I would be happy to help out in any way i can! I know plenty of facilities for video and audio hire in the area and people that could help out. there's a good chance I won't be needing my kit for the 2nd two weeks in august (since i'll be working at the film festival) so you could use my mics / radio mics and 744 if need be.

for video stuff www.hammerheadtv.com/
and for audio stuff www.warehousesound.co.uk/

the thing about this stage stuff though, : I went to a musical about a month ago and was dumbfounded at the stunning delivery of the sound, could hardly keep my mind on the story! There were many dancing singing performers on stage and all the vocals were flawless, and I coudn't even see the mics - reckoned they must've been planted in the hairline. No body movement, no attenuation as they turned danced and jumped, and even when they pulled clothing over their heads on stage.. I was in awe. I came away realising that I had a lot to learn, or that I should just stay away from stage stuff. :) stick to drama. Since then though I've learned a bit how this was achicved, but still wouldn't feel in my zone heading the operation.

Have you done rehearsals for sound?
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Wow thanks for the generous offer! Thankfully I'm not responsible for the production sound, just the video. I'll be meeting with the sound engineer for the production soon. It looks like he'll be bringing a sound board that I'll probably be able to patch into. I'd still like to get audience sound on the recording. I'll remember some of Olegs tips too.

I was checking hamerhead tvs web site. It looks like they rent sony cams. I'll need to learn about video compatiblity, but that's for another thread....
 
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