most powerful light kino 4bank - kino diva- or cool lights?

[PIMP]

I am in the market for some florescent lights. What I am looking for is a light with the most light output (I am shooting with the G35) I ve researched through the various topics in this forum and I havent found a clear answer.

Are kino divas more powerful then a kino 4bank? I also read some coolights are even more powerful then the kinos. Can anyone confirm this? And if so which light is the most powerful?

thanks

o

 

[Matt Gottshalk]

The Divas and the cool Lights take the same bulbs.

 

[Cool Lights]

The CL-655P is the most powerful fluorescent we carry. With the 5600K bulbs. Hope this helps.

 

[PIMP]

how do they compare to the kino 4 bank or divas in terms of light output?

 

[PIMP]

any experiences with the CL-655P would be appreciated.

 

[Cool Lights]

Between 50 and 70% more light than Diva 400.

 

[PIMP]

hey richard

quick question. you say that cool lights are Between 50 and 70% more light than kinos. My question is how is this so with cool lights using 55w lights and kinos 70w?

thanks

 

[Cool Lights]

Last time I checked, a Diva used 55w bulbs just like ours. No 70w model of Diva I know about. Perhaps you're talking about the 4 foot 75w models. The 75w kino four foot bulb puts out 3320 lumens according to their website and draws 75w. The Cool Lights 55w tube puts out about 3000 lumens and draws 55w. A 655P has 2 more bulbs than a diva 400 or a Kino 4 foot 4 bank. 18000 lumens for a 655P and 13280 for a Kino 4 foot 4 bank--not quite 50%. But if comparing a Diva, it will be 50% or so more light because 2 more bulbs.

 

[Bucknfl]

I was on a shoot recently with a rented 4 bank diva and a non dimming 4 bank cool light. I believe they all had 55 watt bulbs. The diva seemed to be about 3/4 of a stop brighter than the cool light, however the diva was alot bluer than the cool light. I liked the color temp of the cool light better. I wasn't testing the lights so l really can't be more accurate on everything.

 

[PIMP]

ok just to clarify. I really need to know before i make a decision this week.

I shoot with the g35 and the thing is a light hog. I rented a kino 4 bank and it gave me just enough light to get a good image. On the other hand i am interested in the cool light 655p has caught my eye. I am just nervous it wont give me the strong light the kino 4bank gave me. The cool light 655p gives me 6banks of light as opposed to the 4 of the kino. However the kinos is 75w and the cool light is 55w. Am i wrong in thinking the kino even though it has two less banks then the cool light is stronger because of the wattage of the bulbs? Or the strength of the light comes in the amount of bulbs?

thanks

 

[Cool Lights]

Let's go back to what I said in post #8 on this thread:

The 75w kino four foot bulb puts out 3320 lumens according to their website and draws 75w. The Cool Lights 55w tube puts out about 3000 lumens and draws 55w. A 655P has 2 more bulbs than a diva 400 or a Kino 4 foot 4 bank. 18000 lumens for a 655P and 13280 for a Kino 4 foot 4 bank--not quite 50%.


T12HO 75w is an old fluorescent tube not as efficient as the newer T5 55w biax lamps. It draws more current to do what it does and gives less efficiency. 75w tubes put out a few more lumens but draw a lot more watts to do that.

Lets look at it a different way:

13280 lumens for a 4 bank 75w Kino. It draws 300w.

18000 lumens for a Cool Lights 655P. It draws 330w.

30 more watts gives you about 5200 more lumens on a 655P. Seems like a winner to me.

I guess if they had a 6 bank 4 foot Kino Flo fixture, it would beat the 655P by about 1800 lumens but there isn't one so its a moot point. There isn't a 6 bulb diva either.

That's about all I can tell you.

 

[Trey T]

Go w/ the facts. I took some time to look at it myself. overall dimension is the same. I would go w/ cool light 6 banks.

dimension:
cool light 24"x16"x4"
diva 26"x12"x6.25"

when you look at lighting, just look at the light output(lumens vs. watts). do the math and see it for yourself. the most important thing is the electronic ballast itself, how long does it last? the unit use 3 ballast?

cool light, what brand ballasts y'all use? do yall guys use it to power your working area as a testing method?

 

[Cool Lights]

We use a brand from China we really like that no one has heard of. Yes we use them all over the place for testing but they've been in use now for over 2 years in some customer installations. We're very happy with the reliability and output quality overall.

 

[Kelly Olsen]

Having just purchased two of the portable four bank Cool Lights, I'd strongly recommend Richard's lights. Very close to the Diva's except the barn doors on the Cool Lights are far more useful.

Dollar for dollar, the Cool Lights are a better buy. More light per dollar for certain. Plus, the owner of the company is available to deal with any issue you may have. Try to get the owner of Kinoflo to answer a question or fix a problem. Richard's service is the best I have ever seen from a company. Got a problem? Richard will do everything in his power to make it go away.

Great product, less expensive, fantastic service. What more can you ask for?

 

[filmat11]

I have two of Richard's 655p' , one 455p and 2 of the 255p'. Very happy to own them, and I use them on almost all my shoots. Get a case for them, and treat them well and they will do the same.
I too am a fan of Richard's personal, attentive service.
Good luck, and buy with confidence.

 

[nejuicer]

most powerful light kino 4bank - kino diva- or cool lights? Part 1

most powerful light kino 4bank - kino diva- or cool lights? Part 1

Are kino divas more powerful then a kino 4bank? I also read some coolights are even more powerful then the kinos. Can anyone confirm this? And if so which light is the most powerful?

It really depends on what type of production you do. If you do narrative films where you are lighting dramatic scenes, you would probably be best served by a Kino Flo Parabeam 400. But, first in the interest of full disclosure, I should say at this point that in addition to being a gaffer, I own and operate ScreenLight & Grip – the rental house Eileen mentions that rents and sells the equipment she recommends above. If what I am about to say sounds like I’m hyping the Kino Flo product line it is not because we rent and sell them. We are dealers and rental agents for just about all the major brands. As a professional Gaffer of a lot of tight budgeted historical documentaries for PBS’ American Experience and The History Channel (see my “credit-entials” on Imbd), I think it is worth noting that the Kino Flo Parabeam fixtures are a viable alternative to HMIs when used with the new inverter generators because they offer low budget independent filmmakers a more affordable alternative to HMI lighting.

My recommendations are based upon extensive research I have done on the use of portable gas generators in motion picture production. For this research, I ran a series of tests in order to analyze the interaction of conventional AVR generators (a Honda EX5500 with Crystal Governor), as well as inverter generators (a Honda EU6500is), with the prevalent light sources available today. I have compiled the results of my tests in an article for my company newsletter and it is available on our website.

What distinguishes the Parabeam fixtures from the other fluorescent lights you mention is their throw, power efficiency, and the innovative accessories Kino Flo makes available for the fixtures that enhance their production capabilities for lighting dramatic scenes. Accessories include barndoors, a gel frame, a diffusion panel, and Honeycomb Louvers. Honeycomb Louvers are available in 90, 60 and 45 degrees. Swapping louvers provides beam control similar to that of swapping lenses on an HMI Par. The Diffusion Panel, on the other hand, slightly softens the beam structure in the open face mode.

In the end, which fluorescent light is “the most powerful”, depends on how you plan to use it. For lighting dramatic scenes, the ParaBeam 400 fixtures would have to be considered the brightest because they have computer aided designed (CAD) parabolic reflectors that focus the light output where it is needed most for lighting dramatic scenes - at a medium distance – making it a better key source for HD Digital Cinema than the Diva 400, CoolLight, or 4’ 4 Bank Kinos. If you compare the photometric tables of the Parabeam 400 and the Diva 400 (which uses the same four lamps), you will notice that at 16’ the Parabeam 400 puts out almost three times the light level (28FC) than the Diva 400 (10FC) even though they both use the same tubes. In fact a Parabeam 400 generates as much light at 16’ as the 4’ 8-Tube Kino Flathead 80 fixture, yet uses less than a quarter of the power – making it an ideal light to operate on a portable generator.

The flip side, is that the Parabeam 400 will be harder and less flattering to your talent as a key source in an interview set up. Given its large size, a 4’ – 4 Bank Kino makes for a more flattering key source in interview set ups than the Parabeam 400. But, where a 4’ – 4 Bank Kino generates a very broad soft light that tends to drop off rapidly they generally do not have the “throw” to serve as a key source in dramatic sets ups. Another advantage to the Parabeam 400 is that you can use the accessory diffusion panel or put diffusion on it to make it softer, where you can not make a 4’ – 4 Bank Kino Flathead harder or make it throw further.

Not only do the Parabeam fixtures have more throw, but they are also easily controlled – an essential requirement in a Key source. Parabeam fixtures are controlled by interchanging Kino Flos’ innovative Honeycomb Louvers. Louvers are available in 90, 60 and 45 degrees. Swapping louvers provides beam control similar to that of swapping lenses on an HMI Par. These features enhance the production capabilities of the Parabeam fixtures and make them suitable to serve as a key or backlight source where conventional fluorescent movie light fixtures will spill all over the set. These features make the Parabeam fixtures the best candidate of all fluorescent lights to replace incandescent soft lights in their roll as dramatic key sources. And, the power you save by not using tungsten instruments for keys and backlights, enables you to power more lights on the generator than you could otherwise. Where I don't have enough space here, I wil pick up with more benefits to the Parabeam fixtures in a subsequent post.

Guy Holt, Gaffer, ScreenLight & Grip , Boston

 

[nejuicer]

Where I don't have enough space here, I wil pick up with more benefits to the Parabeam fixtures in a subsequent post.

Another, advantage to the Parabeam 400 is that it draws less than half of the power (2 Amps) than a 4’ – 4 Bank Kino Flathead 80 (4.6 Amps). While this nearly 3 amp difference is not a major consideration when using house power, it can make a difference when your power is coming from a portable generator because you can use two Parabeam 400s for the same power as a 4’ – 4 Bank Kino. Kino Flo is able to obtain such efficiency in their Parabeam fixtures by incorporating Power Factor Correction circuitry into their ballasts. As it does in HMI ballasts, this advanced electronics contributes to a more economical use of power than Kino Flo’s conventional electronic ballasts and reduces the return of harmonic currents into the power stream. With a Power Factor Rating of over .9, the Parabeam 400 fixtures are especially well suited for use on small portable generators.

All fluorescent fixtures are a good choice for operation on small portable generators in the limited sense that they use a quarter of the power of a comparable tungsten soft light. However, the ballasts of the older style Kino Flo fixtures, like the 4’ – 4 bank Kinos, that use the T-12 tubes (the Single, Double, and 4 Bank Fixtures, the Wall-o-Lite, Flathead 80, and the Image 20, 40, & 80 fixtures) are not power factor corrected and return harmonic currents into the power stream. When used in quantity, as in studio chroma key productions, they can constitute a source of considerable harmonic noise in the power stream. For this reason, Kino Flo cautions users, on their website: “Kino Flo ballasts are generally not power factor corrected. They will draw double the current on the neutral from what is being drawn on the two hot legs. On large installations it may be necessary to double your neutral run so as not to exceed your cable capacity.”( FAQ “Why is the neutral drawing more than the hot leg” at http://www.kinoflo.com/FYI/FAQs.htm#2) For a detailed explanation for why harmonic currents cause unusually high neutral returns see my article on the use of portable generators in motion picture production available on our website.

When you plug a single 4’ - 4 Bank Kino into a wall outlet you need not be concerned about harmonic currents. As is the case with non-PFC HMI ballasts discussed elsewhere in this forum, the impedance of the electrical path from the power plant is so low, the distortion of the original voltage waveform so small (1-3%), and the plant capacity so large in comparison to the load of the one light, that the inherently noisy load of the 4’- 4 Bank Kino will not affect the voltage at the distribution bus.

Left: Grid Power w/ no load and a THD of less then 3%. Center: Conventional Generator w/ no load and a THD of 17-19%. Right: Inverter Generator w/ no load and a THD of 2.5%.​

It is, however, an all together different situation when plugging Kino Flo T-12 fixtures into conventional portable generators. As a comparison of the oscilloscope shots above and below indicate, the return of harmonic currents by conventional Kino Flo T-12 ballasts can generate voltage distortion in the power stream. Given the large sub-transient impedance of conventional portable generators, and the fact that the original supply voltage waveform of conventional generators is appreciably distorted (a THD of 17-19%) to begin with , you have a situation where the return of any harmonic currents by a non-PFC electronic ballast (HMI or Kino) will result in significant waveform distortion of the voltage in the distribution system.

Left: Grid Power w/ Kino Flo Wall-o-Lite. Center: Conventional AVR Power w/ Kino Flo Wall-o-Lite. Right: Inverter Power w/ Kino Flo Wall-o-Lite.​

Given the effect of just one 10–tube Kino Flo Wall-o-Lite with non-pfc electronic ballasts on a 5500W conventional generators, what would be the accumulative effect of a typical lighting load on a generator? To see, I ran a package consisting of two Arri 1200 HMI Par Pluses with standard Arri non-PFC electronic ballasts in addition to the Kino Flo Wall-o-Lite on the Honda EX5500 (a conventional generator). And, for the sake of comparison, I ran the same package but with power factor corrected electronic ballasts on our modified EU6500is (an inverter generator.) The difference between the resulting waveforms below is startling.

The adverse effects of the severe harmonic noise exhibited below left, can take the form of overheating and failing equipment, efficiency losses, circuit breaker trips, excessive current on the neutral return, and instability of the generator’s voltage and frequency. For these reasons it has never been possible to reliably operate more than a couple of 1200W HMIs on a conventional 6500W portable gas generator. Harmonic noise of this magnitude can also damage HD digital cinema production equipment, create ground loops, and possibly create radio frequency (RF) interference. For a detailed explanation for why this is, see my article on the use of portable generators in motion picture production available on our website.

Left: Conventional generator power w/ pkg. of non-PFC Elec. HMI Ballasts & Kino Flo Wall-o-Lite. Center: Scope time base adjusted to bring elongated waveform back on screen. Right: Inverter generator power w/ Pkg. of PFC Elec. Ballasts & Kino Flo Parabeam 400.​

Why are harmonics suddenly an issue in motion picture electrical distribution systems? First, one must appreciate that the power generation and electrical distribution systems developed for motion picture production were never designed to deal with an abundance of non-linear loads like electronic HMI and Kino Flo ballasts. It’s a problem that has only recently begun because of the increasing use of these types of non-linear lighting loads. The problem is being further compounded by the increasing prevalence on set of sophisticated electronic production equipment like computers, hard drives and HD monitors which are themselves sources of harmonic distortion. The increasing use of these microprocessor-based equipment in production has created an unprecedented demand for clean, reliable power on set at a time when the prevailing light sources are dumping more and more noise into the power stream.?

It is worth noting in the oscilloscope shots above that the distortion of the voltage waveform is considerably less in the case of the inverter Honda EU6500is generator (far right) than that of the conventional Honda EX5500 generator (left.) The reason for this is that, as discussed at length in my article, the original waveform of the power generated by the EU6500is (an inverter generator) has less harmonic distortion at the outset than that originally generated by a EX5500 (conventional generator.) For this reason, when your lighting package consists predominantly of non-linear light sources, like HMI and Fluorescent lights, it is important to have power factor correction (PFC) circuitry in the ballasts (HMI & Kino) and operate them on inverter generators like our modified Honda EU6500is. The combination of improved power factor and the nearly pure power waveform of inverter generators makes it possible to power larger lights, or more smaller lights, than has been possible before on a small portable gas generator.

Wide Shot of Night exterior scene lit with our HD P&P Pkg.​

For example, the substantial reduction in line noise that results from using power factor corrected Kino and HMI ballasts on the nearly pure power waveform of an inverter generator creates a new math when it comes to calculating the load you can put on a generator. In the past we had to de-rate portable gas generators because of the inherent short comings of conventional generators with AVR and Frequency governing systems when dealing with the harmonic noise of non-PFC electronic ballasts. The harmonic distortion created by non-PFC ballasts reacting poorly with the distorted power waveform of conventional AVR generators (as evident in the oscilloscope shots above) limited the number HMIs and Kinos you could power on a portable generator to 60% of their rated capacity (4200Watts on a 6500W Generator).

Two Shot of Night exterior scene lit with our HD P&P Pkg​

But now, that inverter generators have virtually no inherent harmonic distortion or sub-transient impedance and power factor correction (PFC) is available in both small HMI and Kino Flo Parabeam ballasts, this conventional wisdom regarding portable gas generators no longer holds true. Where before you could not operate more than a couple 1200W HMIs with non-PFC ballasts on a conventional generator because of the consequent harmonic distortion, now according to the new math of low line noise, you can load an inverter generator to capacity. And if the generator is our modified EU6500is inverter generator, you will be able to run a continuous load of up to 7500W as long as your HMI and Kino ballasts are Power Factor Corrected.

The PFC 2.5 & 1.2 HMI Pars, PFC 800w Joker HMI, Kino Flo Flat Head 80, 2 ParaBeam 400s, and a ParaBeam 200 of our HD P&P Pkg. powered by our modified Honda EU6500is through our 60A Full Power Transformer/Distro​

According to this new math, when you add up the incremental savings in power to be gained by using only PFC ballasts, and combine it with the pure waveform of inverter generators, you can run more lights on a portable gas generator than has been possible before. For example, the 7500W capacity of our modified Honda EU6500is Inverter Generator powered a lighting package for a recent Red shoot (see production stills above and below) that consisted of a PFC 2.5kw HMI Par, PFC 1200, & 800 HMI Pars, a couple of Kino Flo ParaBeam 400s, a couple of ParaBeam 200s, and a Flat Head 80. Given the light sensitivity of HD cameras, this is all the light needed to light even a large night exterior. (For more details on how this is accomplished I suggest you read my newsletter article on the use of portable generators in motion picture production. The article is available on our website.

A Distro System consisting of a 60A Full Power Transformer/Distro, 2-60A GPC (Bates) Splitters, 2-60A Woodhead Box distributes power from a modified Honda EU6500is. Even though the generator is 100' away to reduce noise, plug-in points remain conveniently close to set.​

Given the Parabeam’s throw, how well their ballasts interact with inverter generators, their versatility (they can operate both 5500K & 3200K lamps) and their efficiency (they consume 1/10 the power of comparable incandescent soft lights), Kino Flo Parabeam lights would appear to be the best fluorescent light source for the production of narrative HD Cinema.

Guy Holt, Gaffer, ScreenLight & Grip , Boston

 

[notharrylume]

What is important is footcandles out of the fixture, not lumens of the bulbs. If you look at the Kino photometrics you see that the Diva 4 bank puts out 44 FC at 8'. Tha parabeam is indeed much more effiecient; the Kino charts show it it puts our 98 FC at 8' using precisely the same 4 55 w biax lamps. So although the lumens of the lamps are the same the parabeam produces more than twice as much light ( through more effecient reflectors).

The question to Richard at Coollights is: what are the photometrics of his fixtures: how many footcandles does his 6 x 55w fixture put out?

 

[filmat11]

Get a KINO VistaBeam 600. Over 90 watts for each lamp.