moral dilemma

T

troypod

Well-known member
hey all

working with a new client this week, creating a promo package for products to be released.
Today, when testing the products, for filming, it was discovered that the products aren't all that great, ie. they don't operate under conditions they are intended for, not even close.
This is a first for me. How should I approach the client?
 
I, for one, would not consern myself with whether or not the product works (unless there is a public health consern, of course) as well as intended. Take the money and do the job. They're not paying you for your opinion. I've been in this situation a couple of times and just looked at it as any other job. Just tell me what to shoot and how it is suposed to look. I'll be the people who are shooting all those less than truthful infomercials have the same thoughts, but sign the check anyway.

If you find $20,000 on the street, you turn it in.
If you find $20 on the street you put it in your pocket.
If you find $2,000 on the street... well, I guess that's where you find out what kind of person you really are.
I think this situation represents a $20.
 
Right! It's just a job!

Do you like ANY songs if you shoot music vid's? Do you drive ALL the cars if you shoot comercials for it? If you shoot weddings, you try your best to find favourable picures to give your client a nice results. It doesnt matter that the clients (maybe) ugly, unbearable or simply a$$holes are.

I think this situation represents only 2 cents. ;-)
 
John -
That's a great saying (never heard it before).
I'm stealing it and using it.
(That's the kind of person I am!)
 
seems like this is only one side of the coin. Sure i'm paid to do a job, but it's a little different then shooting a music video for music i hate. Call me old fashioned, but I'm a firm believer in business ethics. I'm doing this video because I would like to help their company, vs. make a quick buck, (that's how I got the reputation I have). But on the other side, I would think they have an entire department dedicated to testing their products, so if they don't catch the problem, why should i?
any more thoughts out there?
 
If you feel morally conflicted, back out of the job. It's that simple.

Different people have different moral standards. If you are uncomfortable in being a participant in making something look like it can do what it can't, because you feel like you would be participating in snookering innocent customers into buying something that doesn't do what you're making it say it does -- then don't do it. A few bucks aren't worth your integrity, and there are plenty of other shooters who will gladly take your place.

Not passing judgement on anyone else who has responded in this thread at all. I'm just saying that you're the one who has to live with yourself, and if you don't like what you're doing and how you feel about it, then the answer is simple: just don't do it.
 
I agree with Barry. If you've been asked to do something that subsequently appears to cross legal or ethical lines, you should let the client know that you're not interested in working on the job.

If you've been contracted you need to step more carefully. You might, even if you stand on the "higher moral ground", expose yourself legally to damages if you back out of a contract - specifically if the client can prove damages from your action.

For example, if the client has hired or brokered marketing services, studio space, labor, insurance, transportation for talent and so on based on your contractual involvement, then you might have some liability. Most contracts provide some insulation from damages beyond the total billable or estimated contract, but there are clients who will pursue a settlement by bringing a lawsuit anyway.

e
 
Yes, what Overland says is absolutely true and I should have mentioned that. Don't leave any client just hanging! If you decide that you cannot, for whatever reason, continue with a job it is only professional and courteous to pre-arrange for a replacement shooter to take your place.
 
Well, I never once was going to flatly tell the client, I refuse to do the project because your product is sh*t. That's the only way I could see a lawsuit coming into play. As of today I basically told them about the problems with their product, but that I'm still able to complete my segment of the marketing process, if they wanted me to.
The result, more testing for the product, and a client who appreciated my concern.
 
Hey guys,
Troypod is the only one who knows just how serious the situation is. Of course no one should lose sleep over a job, but without knowing the specifics of the situation, I think we've said all that can be said. Good luck with your decision, Troypod, but with a moral barometer reading as highly as yours, all I can say is DO NOT move to Hollywood anytime soon!

And hey, cyclone, you haven't heard it before because I made it up. It's in a script that I'm shopping around so if you steal it, steal it quietly okay?


Go Forth and Make Movies
John Wesley Norton
 
John,
I promise I won't use it - but it is clever! In fact, I won't even repeat it in conversation because, frankly, speaking of morality, others out here might just "borrow" it for one of their projects. (Especially since i live in L.A. - where everyone is writing something) I have wiped it from my slate (but fully hope to see it on the screen sometime soon). Good luck!
 
Looks like that I’m the one with the lowest morality here in this thread with my 2 cent. :evil:

Where dose it come from?
My age?
My personal experience?
Must be, anyway…

I only want to point out some little things. First, we are talking about things, they are NOT against the law. If so, I have another point of view. Second, I can write here everything what makes me a honourable person but what I’m writing and what I’m doing are two different things. Third, did we talking about reality or fantasy? Some examples:

If you are working for any selling channels, you have to stop because 90% of that stuff is… (you know what it is). Billy Boy gives you a call to make a commercial for WinXP, you have to say NO because you know how buggy it is (hmm… or YES, because you know that some industries live from these bugs).

You work for the News together with a reporter? Do you agree how they work? Not all but many of them are trained rhetorical bastards. They have a story in here mind and manipulate the notionless victims to say exactly what they want to hear.

Morality? Welcome in the real live or in the shark fish basin!

Btw… Client won’t have problems. They say, yes we fix it and test it more but they thing (99%!!!) …hole. Troypod, I don’t’ want to attack you but did you thing that this client gives you a call when he need his next commercial?


Greetings, :beer:
Ruediger
 
In a situation like this, I suppose I'd say it would depend on what exactly the customer wants...

To me, there's a huge difference between McDonalds gluing their french fries together so they look perfect in their commercial, and outright fraud.

If, for example, a client asked you to re-edit one of their customer's statements from "I really dislike XYZ Product. It burned down my house and killed my dog. I would never recommend it to anyone" to "I really like XYZ product. I would recommend it to anyone." that would certainly be something I wouldn't want to get involved in.
 
RWM said:
Troypod, I don’t’ want to attack you but did you thing that this client gives you a call when he need his next commercial?
Click to expand...

who knows. If you look at what I said closely, you'll see that I told the client that I'd do it, but that I had serious concerns about the quality of the product.
What kind of business owner wants to crank out a product that will be killed by word of mouth shortly after it hit's the stores? It's not about fraud or wimping out, it's about helping this business. If i were told by a video company that they had concerns about my product, I'd look into it, and if the concerns were valid, I'd thank them, and probably want a chance to work with them again.
you have to give people the benefit of the doubt sometimes. people aren't always out there to screw other people over.
 
troypod said:
What kind of business owner wants to crank out a product that will be killed by word of mouth shortly after it hit's the stores? It's not about fraud or wimping out, it's about helping this business. If i were told by a video company that they had concerns about my product, I'd look into it, and if the concerns were valid, I'd thank them, and probably want a chance to work with them again.
you have to give people the benefit of the doubt sometimes. people aren't always out there to screw other people over.
Click to expand...

My distributor (ex-distributor) puts out DVDs. They don't any authoring color correcting nor any of the sound fixing they promise producers like myself. When asked about the quality of the product the owner of the company simply says these are "bootlegs." So Blockbuster, Netflix and other have taken time to bootleg your films? This distributor jumps through hoops to produce poor product when it would be so easy to produce better.

The DVD I burned from my G4 had at least a few extras, they could've copied from my version but they did not. They changed my art and created a poor DVD cover. There is a photo on the back of the DVD of the main characters running from a white wall because their "hot" graphic designer wasn't hot enough to knock the whitewall out and put a background there. (If we don't use photos from the camera many of our photos are taken against white walls then we knock them out and put a background there). We had action photos the could've used and they picked the worst of the bunch. Never underestimate corporate greed and will to under acheive. This is not to say the company you're working for is this way but just using an example to say some companies don't care. They move product and don't lose any money so some people feel they should care.

-Nate
 
Let the market decide. If the product sucks, that's the manufacturer's fault, not yours for making promotional materials as per your contract.
 
troypod said:
who knows. If you look at what I said closely, you'll see that I told the client that I'd do it, but that I had serious concerns about the quality of the product.
What kind of business owner wants to crank out a product that will be killed by word of mouth shortly after it hit's the stores? It's not about fraud or wimping out, it's about helping this business. If i were told by a video company that they had concerns about my product, I'd look into it, and if the concerns were valid, I'd thank them, and probably want a chance to work with them again.
you have to give people the benefit of the doubt sometimes. people aren't always out there to screw other people over.
Click to expand...

It all comes down to your integrity, and your power to maintain it.

If you seriously need this client, and their good reference to retain your clients and pay your bills, then perhaps you integrity has to be mediated with your need to eat and shower daily.

If on the other hand, you can live with the potential hardships caused by your integrity, then by all means, do the right thing.

It seems like you took an honest, honorable course of action, and even more importantly, you took the tone of "trying to help out" and left the responsibility for the product in the proper hands... namely of those marketing it.

If the net result is that the business is shady and underhanded and subsequently attempts to destroy or harm your business... well just be glad you cut free of them when you did.

Almost always the hard way turns out to have been the only easy way in retrospect.

In life, in art, in engineering, in relationships... in everything.
 
Troypod, first: You have good instincts.

Second: I'm NOT a religious man, but there is the old story of a rabbi who was asked to explain the entire Torah (bible) in one sentence while standing on one foot. The rabbi did it. He said "Treat others the way you would like to be treated. The rest is commentary. Now go and study."

Man, life is a game of inches. It only takes being off a few inches a bunch of times, and all of a sudden you're doing things you'd NEVER imagine doing.

But you already knew that.
 
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