Monitors vs. home theater speakers for mixing

Gohanto

Gohanto

Veteran
Ran a search and found this topic addressed in parts, but never really a straight answer. I'm an acoustical engineering student, like doing all of my own sound work for my short films hopefully doing sound design on features down the road if straight up directing doesn't pan out (good odds for both jobs isn't? :cry:)

Anyway, I own decent headphones which are great for editing, however now I'm really starting to get into films that I want to show beyond just my school's crappy theater (they managed to play a dvd of my film and dropped the dialog track, what's odd was that it was only mixed into 2.0 with dialog on both tracks, kinda impressive actually) and I'm trying to get a decent monitor setup. Currently I've got a $6000-ish 7.1 home theater surround sound setup, but all the speakers are targeted for movie/music listening. Kinda a hobby that became a career path, so everything well calibrated and room's acoustically treated. Good stuff, however I'm curious if anyone has opinions about how mid-range home theater gear would work for mixing sound on films.

Or are speakers designed to be monitors really needed?

Also, I know this is a video based site and I'm not really aware of forums targeted at sound mixing. Any suggestions there would be good as well.

Thanks,
 
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Monitors for mixing and then run your mix through your home theatre (amongst other systems...lots of other systems) to see how it translates. No matter what though, like filthrich alluded to in his post, your speakers will sound less than admirable if your room setup sucks.
 
Yeah this forum is as close as it gets here. Do NOT use your home theater to mix with. You'll be way off. Dont ask why I know :) Invest in some good monitors that show every flaw with a flat response. More importantly take at look at your editing suite and see what you need to do for acoustic treatment.
Good speakers in a bad environment wont do you any good at all. Auralex has some good info on this on their website.
 
Bass response is the worst thing in a poorly treated room (in fact, smaller rooms have more problems than bigger rooms). This will skew the whole sonic picture. Spending more on high end monitors will not do you much good if you are mixing in a bedroom.

If your room is already treated (I'm talking more than just a couple of panels on the wall), than you are not doing yourself justice trying to mix properly through home audio gear.

Get a nice pair of Nearfield Monitors, and like Sonic says, A/B your mixes through the home audio gear.
 
From my many days in the studio world, I can tell you that you a good engineer can mix on anything, as long as you "know" the system.

If I walked into a new studio using a setup unfamiliar to me, the first thing I would do is pop in my favorite cd's and dvd's and spend a day just listening to them. Critically listening. How is the bass response? the Mid-range? High-end? detail? etc... Then, when it's time to mix, you know how to compensate to get the sound you're looking for.

I agree that it's better to have proper monitors, but film and tv mixers ALWAYS test their mixes, (and sometimes DO a lot of their mixing) on Auratones, the studio version of a built-in TV speaker. They sound like crap, so if you can mix it so it sounds good on those, AND the high-end monitors, you're getting it right.

If you were talking about a cheezy, one-box-does-all home theatre, I might have some hesitation, but a $6k home theatre sounds pretty good these days.

Since mixing is all about balancing compromises anyway, you can TOTALLY mix on your home theatre system with a little practice and a little extra time.

One tip: Always keep your playback level the same when mixing. Pop in a dvd and adjust it to a comfortable level and then mix your stuff to it there.
 
yeehaanow said:
Auratones, the studio version of a built-in TV speaker. They sound like crap, so if you can mix it so it sounds good on those, AND the high-end monitors, you're getting it right.

Ahh the good old Auratones. If you can make a mix sound good on those you are the man. I had a set for years. Also If you can get your hands on a pair of original NS-10's you will be in a good place. I worked at the Hit Factory in NYC for years before they closed up shop and been on dozens of mix sessions regarding film and 5.1 and I can tell you that mixing a song is a cakewalk compared to a film IMO.
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It's worth mentioning that; just as Auratones were designed to replicate the typical audio system at the time they were made, the typical home audio setup has changed since then and is more likely to resemble the setup you have now. So your current system is still useful.

To put it visually; each different type of audio system is like looking through a colored gel. Maybe your home system has a bluish tint, say a 1/2 ctb. A laptop speaker maybe has a red tint, like a party gel. A better monitoring system will "color" your mix less and allow you to make the most correct judgements instead of trying to "color correct" something that isn't wrong in the first place. Those expensive studio monitors will be crystal clear with no tint at all. But even they will look off if your walls are painted bright orange. (by that I mean you'll need to make sure your room is not adding additional bass or standing frequencies.)

So keep your current system, but add some nice studio monitors and get a pair of the cheapest desktop speakers you can find. Mix on your studio speakers and check it on your "real world" setups. That will keep your mix as neutral as possible.

Unfortunately theres not much you can do if your venue goes as far as getting the phase wrong in their speaker setup. Check the cables that run from the playback device to the amp, I'd bet one is not plugged in all the way, or is a custom made cable, probably by a student.
 
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http://www.musiciansfriend.com/studio-audio-monitors This would be a good place to start looking and reading reviews. Monitors can range anywhere between a couple hundred to several thousand dollars so you will have to figure out what your budget is and work from there.

Are you planning on just doing stereo mix our surround mix? Stereo is the best thing to start out with. I personally like the sound of the Behringer TRUTH series. Make sure you get active monitors unless you have a way to power the passive ones already.

Another slightly more expensive option would be to pick up the Blue Sky Media Desk 2.1 system which can later be upgraded to a 5.1 system if you decide to expand. You can't go wrong with Blue Sky, they are expensive but you get what you pay for. This is the company Skywalker Ranch uses when mixing their THX sound.
 
I mix using my main stereo system (large custom made speakers, Genelec 7071 sub, NAD 208 amp), so I will not say home systems can not be used for critical mixing. Good "home system" in a treated room can be much better than cheapesh monitors in an untreated room. It is the real sound quality which matters here not what the system is called.

If the dialog went missing in your video, the mid speaker must have been connected out of phase.
 
I'd have to agree with just about everything said so far. Just make your mix sound good on as many systems as possible. The best is to mix on a real dub stage, but most people don't have that option. That is the ideal place to get it to sound good. Make your mix sound good on whatever system you end up going with, but then take it and play it back on your home theater system, your TV speakers, and even your headphones. All of these sources will sound drastically different, so take notes on how you can make adjustments (usually not major) to the mix to get it to sound good on the other systems in terms of overall volume, volume of individual sound elements, EQ, dynamic range, and panning. You have to find a balance of all of the systems.

For example, in a theater your sound will be much more "peaky". The systems there will have much more peak power behind them, so you dynamic range and transient response will be better. Gun shots will really pop and you can hit the LFE a little bit harder. On a home theater and with TV speakers, you will have less dynamic range (usually), so that same gun shot will not stick out as much as it did in the theater, The adjustment you would think to make is to turn it up so that the gunshot will hit at home like it does in the theater, but then the gunshots will start making your ears bleed in the theater. So you have to find a balance that works good for both systems unless you want to do two separate mixes for theatrical and home theatre.
 
Thanks for all the advice, one thing I noticed when looking around though...

Anyone know if home theater subs are going to have the same problems in the mix as 20kHz-80Hz speakers?
 
The proper use of subs is to shake your seat. That’s all they were designed for. The problem is home theater manufactures wanted to make smaller and smaller main speakers. To compensate for small speakers incapability to reproduce low frequencies, they send the low-mids to the LFE channel. Then the speakers got even smaller, so they sent the mids to the LFE channel. If you mix on a home theater system, you risk having your mix getting all weird because of manufactures improper use of the LFE.

Yes, a good mixer can mix on anything they are familiar with. If you learn the quirks of your system, you can compensate. But like has been stated before, bad speakers in a good room is much better then great speakers in a bad room.


 
Hxd Ped said:
The proper use of subs is to shake your seat. That’s all they were designed for. The problem is home theater manufactures wanted to make smaller and smaller main speakers. To compensate for small speakers incapability to reproduce low frequencies, they send the low-mids to the LFE channel. Then the speakers got even smaller, so they sent the mids to the LFE channel. If you mix on a home theater system, you risk having your mix getting all weird because of manufactures improper use of the LFE.
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I'm not sure where you got your information on home theater subs (maybe Bose the anti-christ of modern home theater) but subs have a standard cross-over to the mains set at 80Hz. Right below where the human ear can localize sound easily. It's been "officially" set there since THX standards came out many years ago, but it's always been close to there on most systems. Subs shakes seats, yes, but you'd need absurdly large floor speakers to get an even response down to 20Hz in anything but a closest sized room otherwise.
 
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And thanks for all the advice from everyone on monitors.

I'm just about set on getting a pair of Tannoy Reveal 5A monitors.
 
What I meant by my post was this.


The 7 main speakers in my 7.1 surround setup have 2.5 inch drivers. There is no way these cones are reproducing the low mids accurately, or anything even close to the 80Hz crossover point. Where do you send the program material that the 2.5 inch drivers can't reproduce? The only other place to put it is the sub.


My main point is that most surround system speakers on the market today can't accurately reproduce frequencies that they are “supposed to”. If your main left and right speakers had 6 inch drivers in them, it would go a long way to improving the sound of many home surround systems.


I hope that clarifies what I meant.


BTW, good choice on the Tannoys.
 
yeehaanow said:
From my many days in the studio world, I can tell you that you a good engineer can mix on anything, as long as you "know" the system.

Since mixing is all about balancing compromises anyway, you can TOTALLY mix on your home theatre system with a little practice and a little extra time.
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I totally agree with this statement. You can mix on anything that you are intimately familiar with, but don't expect anyone else to.

Jockomo said:
So keep your current system, but add some nice studio monitors and get a pair of the cheapest desktop speakers you can find. Mix on your studio speakers and check it on your "real world" setups. That will keep your mix as neutral as possible.
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Excellent advice. Proper near fields are indispensable and offer a reality check to your home theater system. Dialog is King and a proper dialog edit and premix is best done on studio monitors. Small near fields are not expensive and depending on your room are very forgiving compared to expensive large format monitors. The dialog mix should sit at -20 db... and that is not easy to do without a proper metering system which IS expensive. The dynamics of the mix along with SFX, music tracks. etc. are balanced around the dialog.
 
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filthrich said:
yeehaanow said:
I worked at the Hit Factory in NYC for years before they closed up shop and been on dozens of mix sessions regarding film and 5.1 and I can tell you that mixing a song is a cakewalk compared to a film IMO.
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I couldn't disagree more.
A film sound track is infinitely more complex and involved than any music track could possibly be, but you don't have to be an engineer to pull it off. You do need a good ear and a lot of experience...one is inherent, the other is a matter of time and dedicated practice.

Music however, involves pure engineering skills. No, not to be confused with creating loops on a computer with pre recorded samples. Real engineering is creating and sculpting sound from an original source and involves a high degree of musicality. It is not essential to be a musician but, most engineers are or have had formal training. To create a well balanced music track that sounds good by today's standards is easy. To mix a work of art with musicality, meaning the piece floats and is effortless to the ear involves pure engineering skills and takes many, many years to master.
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I guess that would depend on your meaning of easy. In the film you also have to mix the music, so on top of what you say is very difficult you also have what you say is infinitely more complex. Some how that seems to be the harder task than just the difficult one. And I disagree with your "pure engineering skills" and I think most music mixers would be quite offended. This sounds like comments by someone who has done neither. Or at least done neither well.

Sound Chaser said:
filthrich said:
I couldn't disagree more.
A film sound track is infinitely more complex and involved than any music track could possibly be, but you don't have to be an engineer to pull it off. You do need a good ear and a lot of experience...one is inherent, the other is a matter of time and dedicated practice.

Music however, involves pure engineering skills. No, not to be confused with creating loops on a computer with pre recorded samples. Real engineering is creating and sculpting sound from an original source and involves a high degree of musicality. It is not essential to be a musician but, most engineers are or have had formal training. To create a well balanced music track that sounds good by today's standards is easy. To mix a work of art with musicality, meaning the piece floats and is effortless to the ear involves pure engineering skills and takes many, many years to master.
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Noiz2 said:
In the film you also have to mix the music, so on top of what you say is very difficult you also have what you say is infinitely more complex. Some how that seems to be the harder task than just the difficult one.
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To what degree are you mixing the music tracks in a film. Unless you are talking about all but the highest budget post productions where there are 3 dedicated mixers, music tracks are usually sent down in stems. As a re-mix engineer YOU NEVER HAVE TO CREATE THE ORIGINAL SOUND of the musicians; that is an entirely different skill set. One particular point that any engineer who has worked in both audio and video is aware of, is sound with visual is a lot less critical than audio alone. The visual always over takes the audio.

BTW...I have worked at the highest level including the Toronto Symphony Orchestra. Again, Front of House is an entirely different skill set, and as my background includes 25 years in this field perhaps I am biased and do not have a full appreciation of the post field. I do know one thing however, the learning curve in post is much easier. I see from your website you have an impressive list of credits, but when it comes to actual audio samples where is the proof. Provide me with a music track ENGINEERED EXCLUSIVELY BY YOU, not a film track produced by a post production department. My work is available for anyone to listen too.

TALK IS CHEAP. When you provide me with a music track recorded from scratch exclusively by you that blows me away, I will humbly eat my words that are after all only my opinion.
But, be warned I can tell if your tracks are genuine by asking a few simple questions. I doubt if you have ever engineered an album...sounds hypocritical to attack with all knowing condecention if you've only slept on one side of the bed.
 
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