Monitoring with Headphones

[dr_stupid]

Why shouldn't I?

-I have some computer speakers that I know are crap.
-I have some relatively cheap stereo speakers that are probably not very good. I have no way to really know for sure, as I do not have the knowledge, ability, or equipment to plot fancy shmancy graphs of their frequency response curves.
-I have some Sony MDR-7506 headphones that I at least know have a reputation for reproducing very accurate sound.
-My "editing suite" is a one bedroom apartment in a city with window air conditioners and a bunch of other God-forbidden noise polution. I am not moving. I am not building a sound studio in my bedroom.
-I have no money. I have negative money, i.e. extreme debt. I am not buying a $1000 pair of speakers. I am not buying a $100 pair of speakers. I am not buying anything else for a very very long time, except MAYBE some food...

What would you do in my situation?

I recently read Jay Rose's book, and don't follow his logic in the section on monitoring. The arguments seemed to go like this:

1) Don't monitor with bad speakers, even if you know your audience will hear the mix on bad speakers. You will not be hearing accurate sound on your bad speakers, and will make decisions based on that inaccurate information. Your decisions may be totally wrong. At best, the results of your decisions will be unpredictable on other people's bad speakers.

2) Don't monitor with headphones. Headphones are "too accurate." You will make decisions based on this very accurate information that may not be valid on bad speakers.

Seriously, am I crazy, or does this line of reasoning completely contradict itself? Don't make your decisions based on innaccurate information. Don't make your decisions based on very accurate information. Don't use speakers of similar quality to your audience's speakers. Don't use headphones, because they are more accurate than your audience's speakers.

Also, the conclusion seems to be: Monitor with very very very very good quality uber-expensive loudspeakers. These will give you highly accurate information, but apparently they won't be "too accurate" like headphones. What you hear may still have nothing to do with what your audience will hear on their bad speakers. But it will be "predictable" in some special way that decisions based on good headphones would not be predictable. AND, above all, you will really be able to feel like one kick-ass audio pro with your sweet gear! You might even be able to lift your nose at all those noobs editing on their crappy-ass crappos... Just kidding.

But really, I am very confused.... Any wisdom would be much appreciated!

Thanks!

 

[MattinSTL]

I understand your confusion... ideally you want decent speakers to edit with. I have some decent (but not good by pro standards) speakers... but I ALSO send my video via analog out (on my capture card) to a 15" stereo TV that I use as a "real world" monitor. This cured me of overly OCD sound editing.

Everytime I got really involved with what I thought were cool subtleties and neat little details... I ran it through the analog preview and it was like, "yep... waste of time again".

At this point I have a good idea of what will or won't come through on a normal TV... and I don't waste time fiddling with some little nothing that sounds really cool on my NLE.

I tried editing with headphones when my female companion didn't share my enthusiasm for all-night editing even though she was sharing my SPACE... and after editing with headphones on I quickly found out why people say it's such a bad idea.

Just TRY it and you'll see. It's very confusing when your video sounds NOTHING like it did in the headphones... but maybe, just MAYBE you can train yourself to understand how the headphones are tricking you and then compensate for what a TV will actually reproduce.

Does any of that make any sense?

 

[ullanta]

Headphones are very good for some things... especially in being sure that edits aren't noticeable. Real speakers give you a better feeling for the sound "quality", spaciousness, etc. So, in your situation, my advice would be: use both. Use headphones to make sure you're not introducing any glitches, distortion, or noticeable shifts in sound. Use crappy speakers (or better speakers if you can) to really listen and make sure it's aesthetically what you want. Realize the difference between the two sounds... try to at least play back on a good setup (somewhere else) once in a while to tune yourself to the differences... and you can do a reasonable job. A little more time for multiple listenings, but that's what low-budget is all about.

 

[dr_stupid]

Hey - thanks guys -- good suggestions. I think I'm going to use both the stereo speakers and the headphones while editing, and then check occasionally on a standard TV (as I already do to check my colors). Hopefully it will work out okay!

Incidentally, from what you are saying, it sounds like I'm correct in thinking that having really good speakers would not necessarily "solve" this problem. What you hear on them may not be at all reproduced on crappy speakers, just as with headphones. I guess the only advantage is that you get a better sense for the spacial quality, etc?

 

[tigeba]

I hope you don't mind me saying this, but I feel your conclusions are quite incorrect. I believe you have taken away the wrong impression about the pitfalls of monitoring on headphones. The problem with headphones is not "too much accuracy" (I always recommend 7506's to everyone, but I would never claim they are hyper-accurate) but rather a problem that they represent a soundstage that does not exist without having a speaker centimeters from your eardrum. I routinely use headphones for doing edits, and listening to individual passages, but they are a poor substitue for good monitors for mixing.

Most studios will have 1 or 2 sets of high end speakers, plus various "reference" speakers that simulate "real world" devices. Some examples of reference speakers might be the Sony NS-10, or the Auratone (aka HorrorTone). The Auratone is pretty much a speaker that emulates the crappy little speaker in your television. The point of the high end speakers, is that they ARE accurate, unlike most consumer speakers that have a great deal of bass and treble emphasis. In my studio, I use Mackie 824's as the mains, with a set of typical bookshelf stereo speakers, and an Auratone type crummy speaker. You usually have to compromise a little to get something sounding good everywhere.

If you cannot afford decent monitors, then my advice is you use what you have. But don't delude yourself thinking that the perfect solution is to use a set of crappy speakers and some headphones. If your enviornment is really noisy, and you can't do anything about it. Mix on your phones and reality check on all your various other gear. The best thing is to hook everything up so you can easily A/B compare while you are mixing. Be prepared to compromise. You will definately have to make changes to make things audible on the stereo speakers that you could hear just fine on the phones. 7506's tend to make everything sound good, which is one of the reasons they are so popular. They are the headphone equivalent of "beer goggles" and you cannot trust them

P.S. Don't mix on headphones.

 

[dr_stupid]

P.S. Don't mix on headphones.

LOL!

I hope you don't mind me saying this, but I feel your conclusions are quite incorrect.

Don't mind at all! I was hoping to understand how I was misunderstanding. So I guess the issue is not that headphones are "too accurate," but that the whole sound experience with headphones is fundamentally different than that with loudspeakers? Like what Ullanta was getting at with "sound quality." Is that a better way to say it? As I switch back and forth while editing, hopefully I will start to get a better feel for the nature of the differences...

Really I am just expressing frustration as a newcomer at having invested a lot of money already, yet feeling like every time I turn around, someone is making the case that unless I invest a lot more in such-and-such an area, my results will be lousy. And that may actually be true! I just want to be sure, when I hear that, that the logic makes sense to me and I'm not just hearing a sort of professional snobbery or claims that are highly individual or subjective.

Anyway, for now I will have to stick to my bookshelfs and the headphones. But if and when the day comes that I have some money to invest, what would you guys recommend for entry-level monitors of a more professional caliber? I'm sure that thread exists somewhere, but we're on the topic, and I'm feeling lazy...

Thanks again!

 

[tigeba]

Don't mind at all! I was hoping to understand how I was misunderstanding. So I guess the issue is not that headphones are "too accurate," but that the whole sound experience with headphones is fundamentally different than that with loudspeakers?

You nailed it. For example, there is this microphone system that Neumann makes called a Binaural Head that mimics a human head, and specifically mimics the way your ears capture sound. If you listen to a recording made from one of these on headphones, you will practically crap your pants as a result of the shocking realistic "you are there" experience. However you can listen to the same recording on a fantastic super-pimp set of monitors in a great room, and you get nothing. If your audience is predominantly listening to your material on speakers, and not headphones, then you have to mix for them.


You can mix on anything, but it takes a lot more experience and skill (but mostly experience) to mix in a poor enviornment.

 

[ullanta]

So I guess the issue is not that headphones are "too accurate," but that the whole sound experience with headphones is fundamentally different than that with loudspeakers? ... As I switch back and forth while editing, hopefully I will start to get a better feel for the nature of the differences...

Exactly. And listening to the sound on many different playback systems is exactly what you need to do to gain mixing skills and insights... every playback system in the world sounds different, and you'll need to know how to make your mixes work well on at least most of 'em... good luck!

 

[Dave_Fisk]

If you are cutting picture, and it's just reference audio, then headphones are just fine. I do most of my cutting in Pro Tools with headphones on. I don't mix with headphones, that's when I fire up the good ol' Mackie 824's, but I have two small kids, so I can't do that all the time.

I understand your plight. In your situation, the headphones are the way to go.


-Dave

 

[wabbit]

The headphones present the whole frequency curve directly into your ears (you will hear the subtliest detail) and monitor speakers lose some frequencies with distance (think of how you can hear loud music at a distance but only the low frequencies and as you get closer all the frequecies start to become clear). If you mix with headphones you will hear frequencies that will not reach the listener's ears when it is played thru standard speakers.

That make sense?

 

[Droog]

Can I just say that I think Mackie 824's kick ass?

Oh, yeah don't mix on headphones!

Just kidding, my motto "do the best you can with what you got" if that means taking a mix to 5 differnt TV or stereos around your dorm, and making five mixes before you get it "right" because you can't hear a damn thing on your I-MAC's built in speakers and you had to use headphones instead, then do it. (Just a poor attempt at hyperbole, sorry)