Mixing Fluoro and CDM
- Thread starter pmark23
- Start date
Jeff Anderson
Custom Title!
Just ordered a CDM to go with my Coollights daylight balanced flourescent, - will let you know when I get it. Its 5400K versus 5600K so I imagine its pretty darn close. Richard has mentioned using the two in conjuction so I'm betting they do. The flo matches just fine with my 5600K vidled if thats worth anything to you 
Barry_Green
Moderator
I got one, plugged it in and checked it out. Initial reactions are pretty good. The light is bright and blue, it didn't appear green-tinted like the Britek DayPhotos I used to have. The ballast is very small and light, a welcome change from my huge & heavy magnetic ballasts for my conventional HMIs. Biggest plus is the price, under $400.
The ballast was a bit buzzy. It seemed to get a little quieter as it warmed up; initially I was disappointed but after it settled down it's probably fine. You'll still want to keep the ballast as far away from the mic as possible though.
The light looks like an Arri; it doesn't feel anywhere near as robust as an Arri, but it's also staggeringly less expensive than an Arri. I mean, price it out at B&H: an Arri 125w HMI fresnel is $1200, then add another $200 for the lamp, and another $60 for the barn doors, and then another $1200 for the ballast... that's $2660 for the Arri, or $390 for the Cool Lights. I mean, make no mistake, I don't think the Cool Lights unit is in the same class as the Arri, but IT'S 1/7TH THE PRICE! Heck, it's less expensive than an Arri TUNGSTEN fresnel! You could barely buy two lamps for the Arri for more money than the entire light plus barn doors plus light package from Cool Lights. And the Cool Lights unit is 20% brighter than the Arri too (150w vs. 125w).
Kudos to Richard for MUCH better packaging than on the 655s I got. Nice online manual with full-color photos too. I could see picking up three more of these to round out my HMI kit. They are not Arris, make no mistake, but for a litttle spot fill-in light that takes only 150w and outputs blue light, it's really quite a deal.
The ballast was a bit buzzy. It seemed to get a little quieter as it warmed up; initially I was disappointed but after it settled down it's probably fine. You'll still want to keep the ballast as far away from the mic as possible though.
The light looks like an Arri; it doesn't feel anywhere near as robust as an Arri, but it's also staggeringly less expensive than an Arri. I mean, price it out at B&H: an Arri 125w HMI fresnel is $1200, then add another $200 for the lamp, and another $60 for the barn doors, and then another $1200 for the ballast... that's $2660 for the Arri, or $390 for the Cool Lights. I mean, make no mistake, I don't think the Cool Lights unit is in the same class as the Arri, but IT'S 1/7TH THE PRICE! Heck, it's less expensive than an Arri TUNGSTEN fresnel! You could barely buy two lamps for the Arri for more money than the entire light plus barn doors plus light package from Cool Lights. And the Cool Lights unit is 20% brighter than the Arri too (150w vs. 125w).
Kudos to Richard for MUCH better packaging than on the 655s I got. Nice online manual with full-color photos too. I could see picking up three more of these to round out my HMI kit. They are not Arris, make no mistake, but for a litttle spot fill-in light that takes only 150w and outputs blue light, it's really quite a deal.
Cool Lights
DVXuser Sponsor
Thanks Barry for the quick review. Thats a really realistic assessment and about what I'd say too. Its doing what it was meant to do and at a miracle price.
I just want to make clear, we actually aren't trying to be Arri or Kino Flo, we are in fact doing our own thing, have our own path, and offer what we offer for a great price--but people shouldn't expect perfection at 1/4 to 1/7 of the price which is what the average is on these HMI products of ours. No one else is trying to do what we're doing with HMI. Please don't lose perspective on this fact but they are more than usable. In addition, you shouldn't lose perspective on the fact that we are a 2 person company with partners and contractors that just gets things done and we're not giving excuses, but I never said we were speedy either. It took a while to get these products done this year and get them in. You can have 2 of the 3 criteria of good, fast and inexpensive but not all three.
The message I hope people take away is that if you want perfection then pay for it, but even then, don't be surprised if you have the occasional issue with fixtures that are 10% to 400% more expensive than ours. If you want great light at a great price then look no further than here.
There is a bit of buzz at the startup of electronic HMI's and it usually goes away for the most part at warmup by up to 5m. All lower cost metal halide fixtures using electronic ballasts will have varying degrees of noise. Its just part of the price to pay. Maybe later generations will polish up and have less noise but for now it is something to be accommodated in your setups and a small price to pay to get an HMI type fixture at this price level. This is exactly what I was looking for when I embarked on this quest at this time last year: "the fluorescent of hard lights" as I call it; or, our answer to the energy efficient and economical hard light. You won't get anything else to do hard and intense, but cool light like this, including LEDs at this price point; and certainly no way to get a daylight fresnel of this intensity and price point without loss of light due to gelling.
What buzz is left on the CL-MF0150 is slight and should not be heard on a normally positioned microphone (near subject and lights not right next to subject). I have to put my ear up to mine to be able to hear it. This is a compromise that was made to keep the cost low. The next candidate ballast we had was completely silent but, twice the size, three times the weight and almost 4 times the price. Whatever small noise you can hear when you put your ear up to the unit is a small price to pay for what you are getting.
I'm really wishing we made more of these things as we are almost already out of them they were so popular.
I just want to make clear, we actually aren't trying to be Arri or Kino Flo, we are in fact doing our own thing, have our own path, and offer what we offer for a great price--but people shouldn't expect perfection at 1/4 to 1/7 of the price which is what the average is on these HMI products of ours. No one else is trying to do what we're doing with HMI. Please don't lose perspective on this fact but they are more than usable. In addition, you shouldn't lose perspective on the fact that we are a 2 person company with partners and contractors that just gets things done and we're not giving excuses, but I never said we were speedy either. It took a while to get these products done this year and get them in. You can have 2 of the 3 criteria of good, fast and inexpensive but not all three.
The message I hope people take away is that if you want perfection then pay for it, but even then, don't be surprised if you have the occasional issue with fixtures that are 10% to 400% more expensive than ours. If you want great light at a great price then look no further than here.
There is a bit of buzz at the startup of electronic HMI's and it usually goes away for the most part at warmup by up to 5m. All lower cost metal halide fixtures using electronic ballasts will have varying degrees of noise. Its just part of the price to pay. Maybe later generations will polish up and have less noise but for now it is something to be accommodated in your setups and a small price to pay to get an HMI type fixture at this price level. This is exactly what I was looking for when I embarked on this quest at this time last year: "the fluorescent of hard lights" as I call it; or, our answer to the energy efficient and economical hard light. You won't get anything else to do hard and intense, but cool light like this, including LEDs at this price point; and certainly no way to get a daylight fresnel of this intensity and price point without loss of light due to gelling.
What buzz is left on the CL-MF0150 is slight and should not be heard on a normally positioned microphone (near subject and lights not right next to subject). I have to put my ear up to mine to be able to hear it. This is a compromise that was made to keep the cost low. The next candidate ballast we had was completely silent but, twice the size, three times the weight and almost 4 times the price. Whatever small noise you can hear when you put your ear up to the unit is a small price to pay for what you are getting.
I'm really wishing we made more of these things as we are almost already out of them they were so popular.
Last edited:
Barry_Green
Moderator
Richard, I think we're on the same page. I do worry about people's perspective on this so I try to spell it out -- these are not substitutes for equipment like Arri. They are not the same. You're not getting something for nothing. I mean, Ketch Rossi is trying to sell a FilmTools 1200W PAR for $4500 and people are saying things like "forget that, get a Cool Lights HMI" -- and an attitude like that shows that they don't understand what the differences are.
This little 150W HMI is a STEAL at its price. But it's not in the same class as an Arri. And that's okay -- you're getting way more than 1/7th the performance, at 1/7th the cost. As far as actual light output you're getting pretty close, and the tradeoff is somewhat flimsier construction and a little buzz in the ballast. AT 1/7TH THE PRICE! :thumbsup:
Point is: you could buy one BMW 750iL, or 7 Hyundai Elantras. Is the Elantra as good as the BMW? No, obviously. But you could have 7 of them! And they get better gas mileage. And they will get you from point A to point B just fine.
If I was a rental house expecting to charge top dollar to rent gear out to potentially abusive rental customers, I wouldn't buy Cool Lights gear, I'd spend the bucks to get the top-line stuff. But if I was an individual shooter trying to piece together my own light kit? No question I'd buy this stuff, and just be more careful and attentive with it (which you're likely to do when it's your own stuff anyway!)
The true competition for this stuff is the used 575w HMI fresnel on ebay with the big ol' magnetic ballast. I picked up some of those at $500, and the 1200w PARs have gone for $1200. I'd consider a DeSisti or Ianiro 1200w PAR at $1200 vs. a Cool Lights 1200W PAR at $2800, certainly. The 150W HMI is a little bit of a niche product; it's nowhere near powerful enough to be useful outside, but for those of us putting together daylight-based greenscreen or interior kits it's great. And for Red shooters it's even more interesting; the Red sensor is balanced for 5000k and the blue channel gets much noisier if you shoot under tungsten lighting/tungsten white balance, so an affordable tungsten-replacement blue light kit is very very interesting for Red owner-operators.
This little 150W HMI is a STEAL at its price. But it's not in the same class as an Arri. And that's okay -- you're getting way more than 1/7th the performance, at 1/7th the cost. As far as actual light output you're getting pretty close, and the tradeoff is somewhat flimsier construction and a little buzz in the ballast. AT 1/7TH THE PRICE! :thumbsup:
Point is: you could buy one BMW 750iL, or 7 Hyundai Elantras. Is the Elantra as good as the BMW? No, obviously. But you could have 7 of them! And they get better gas mileage. And they will get you from point A to point B just fine.
If I was a rental house expecting to charge top dollar to rent gear out to potentially abusive rental customers, I wouldn't buy Cool Lights gear, I'd spend the bucks to get the top-line stuff. But if I was an individual shooter trying to piece together my own light kit? No question I'd buy this stuff, and just be more careful and attentive with it (which you're likely to do when it's your own stuff anyway!)
The true competition for this stuff is the used 575w HMI fresnel on ebay with the big ol' magnetic ballast. I picked up some of those at $500, and the 1200w PARs have gone for $1200. I'd consider a DeSisti or Ianiro 1200w PAR at $1200 vs. a Cool Lights 1200W PAR at $2800, certainly. The 150W HMI is a little bit of a niche product; it's nowhere near powerful enough to be useful outside, but for those of us putting together daylight-based greenscreen or interior kits it's great. And for Red shooters it's even more interesting; the Red sensor is balanced for 5000k and the blue channel gets much noisier if you shoot under tungsten lighting/tungsten white balance, so an affordable tungsten-replacement blue light kit is very very interesting for Red owner-operators.
Last edited:
Barry_Green
Moderator
I'm talking about a PAR version of a 1.2k HMI. You can get 1200w HMIs in PAR or Fresnel versions.
Leo Versola
Well-known member
I've been using two of the CDM-150's and one 6-lamp daylight-balanced portable flo for about three weeks now as my primary interior kit and I've been very pleased with the way they've mixed together. The 5600K light from the CDM's is very similar to HMI's I've used in the past and seem a touch cooler than the daylight flo primarily because of the 'crispness' of the harder beam.
IMHO, the Cool Lights CDM/HMI's are some of the 'hottest' deals on lighting you can get right now; I'm looking forward to more variations of these lights from Richard. Get 'em while you can; they're sure to sell out fast...
IMHO, the Cool Lights CDM/HMI's are some of the 'hottest' deals on lighting you can get right now; I'm looking forward to more variations of these lights from Richard. Get 'em while you can; they're sure to sell out fast...
Cool Lights
DVXuser Sponsor
I never tell anyone they're getting a direct Arri substitute nor should they be buying my gear to rent out and I discourage that. The idea is to make it inexpensive enough so you don't have to rent.
In addition, I didn't catch what the point about the Filmgear par is in comparison to our forthcoming 1200w HMI par. Many will tell you Filmgear is way overpriced for what it is. Its made here in China, not far from where we live and I passed over it for what I'm doing now which is NOT made by Filmgear. I'll stack the 575w/1200w pro ballast that goes with our 1200w hmi par against most of what's out there including Filmgear.
While my 575w HMI is not in major distribution yet, when it is, again you won't be able to touch the price even close with anything including many used models. Our 575w at $699 will again be a new price level benchmark once the unit is out of test and I feel comfortable with putting it into major production.
In addition, I didn't catch what the point about the Filmgear par is in comparison to our forthcoming 1200w HMI par. Many will tell you Filmgear is way overpriced for what it is. Its made here in China, not far from where we live and I passed over it for what I'm doing now which is NOT made by Filmgear. I'll stack the 575w/1200w pro ballast that goes with our 1200w hmi par against most of what's out there including Filmgear.
While my 575w HMI is not in major distribution yet, when it is, again you won't be able to touch the price even close with anything including many used models. Our 575w at $699 will again be a new price level benchmark once the unit is out of test and I feel comfortable with putting it into major production.
Last edited:
Leo Versola
Well-known member
This is a very key point. The next price points for anything similar to the Cool Light CDM/HMI's put them out-of-range for most indie filmmakers to own themselves.
I'm still amazed by the costs of not only the lights themselves but all of the incidental gear you will need to properly control the lighting; you could easily exceed what you've spent on all your camera/audio/editing gear without trying very hard.
It's chilling to think how much you can spend putting together a decent filmmaking package; talk about a slippery slope! Even more so when you're doing it out pure love for the craft and aren't receiving any immediate income from it.
I for one, am grateful to Richard for putting his heart and soul into his Cool Lights company and providing affordable, high quality lighting I can own myself.
I hope he makes a mint doing it; just as long as he doesn't raise any of his prices
sunporchmedia
Well-known member
I'll echo Barry's comments. I have two of Richard's new portable flo fixtures, one CDM150 and a tungsten fresnel 300. I did a longer review on another thread, but to summarize here:
1. The CDM150 is an amazing tool for the price. Will I have to baby it a bit? Sure, but no more than my Lowel fixtures or any of my other personal kit.
2. The portable flo fixtures are also amazing for the price.
3. Here is the most important point: Neither product is a mere clone of anything on the market. While the CDM150 is housed in a standard clone housing, the imagination and engineering that went into it are unique and revolutionary. Ditto for the flo's. The design, materials, and construction are extremely well-thought-out and well-executed. I've done a side by side shootout with the KinoFlo Divas, and Richard's fixtures are actually better in several respects (half the weight, closed ends for rigidity and to control light spill, etc.)
4. The tungsten 300 is a fine little fixture. I think it is quite close to the Arri 300 in build quality. It's more of a clone, unlike the other fixtures, but it is a great little value.
5. Are they perfect? No. Are they an outstanding value? Absolutely. Will I buy more if my needs occasion it? Without question.
I've been in the film business for 20 years. I've been a DP for ten, and a documentary TV series producer over the last year. I have exacting standards and a keen eye for value. In my opinion Richard has knocked it out of the park on the first swing.
PS: Barry, I think that, used appropriately in certain situations (hard fill for interviews, for instance), the CDM150 can absolutely be useful outdoors.
1. The CDM150 is an amazing tool for the price. Will I have to baby it a bit? Sure, but no more than my Lowel fixtures or any of my other personal kit.
2. The portable flo fixtures are also amazing for the price.
3. Here is the most important point: Neither product is a mere clone of anything on the market. While the CDM150 is housed in a standard clone housing, the imagination and engineering that went into it are unique and revolutionary. Ditto for the flo's. The design, materials, and construction are extremely well-thought-out and well-executed. I've done a side by side shootout with the KinoFlo Divas, and Richard's fixtures are actually better in several respects (half the weight, closed ends for rigidity and to control light spill, etc.)
4. The tungsten 300 is a fine little fixture. I think it is quite close to the Arri 300 in build quality. It's more of a clone, unlike the other fixtures, but it is a great little value.
5. Are they perfect? No. Are they an outstanding value? Absolutely. Will I buy more if my needs occasion it? Without question.
I've been in the film business for 20 years. I've been a DP for ten, and a documentary TV series producer over the last year. I have exacting standards and a keen eye for value. In my opinion Richard has knocked it out of the park on the first swing.
PS: Barry, I think that, used appropriately in certain situations (hard fill for interviews, for instance), the CDM150 can absolutely be useful outdoors.
Barry_Green
Moderator
I know that, and you're right. But I'm more concerned with end users telling people that the inexpensive stuff is "just as good." All I'm trying to do is make sure people keep it in context. For example, when you say:
I am ALL for that. You can't learn lighting if you're shelling out big bucks to rent, you have to have the stuff on hand to work with and experiment. And having your own stuff (especially low-priced stuff) amortizes incredibly quickly; anyone shelling out $300 to rent a light kit per day is going to find that it doesn't take long before they could own it outright and turn that $300 "spent" into $300 "kept" every time they use it.
Like I said, I think the 150W tungsten and the 150W CDM are great little units, at unbeatable prices.
Ah. Okay, news to me, I hadn't used it. Sorry!
Barry_Green
Moderator
At night in the shade?
I've got a few 575w fresnels and I find 'em nigh unto useless outdoors, I can't imagine a unit with 1/3 the power doing much if anything.
I mainly got this unit because I'm building a small daylight-lit studio and it's absolutely perfect for that. Have you tried it outdoors? I'd be surprised if you got any useful illumination from it, but man would it be infinitely more convenient to carry around that tiny ballast instead of the massive magnetic ballasts of my existing 575s!
sunporchmedia
Well-known member
At night in the shade?
I've got a few 575w fresnels and I find 'em nigh unto useless outdoors, I can't imagine a unit with 1/3 the power doing much if anything.
Mostly theory at this point...
Haven't had time to test. However, I've used 650w tungsten frensels (spotted) with half-blue gels in a pinch, to punch up the shadows in an interview outdoors (desperate times call for desparate measures), and I think the CDM light output should be comparable at least.
First scenario: from directly behind the camera as a fill light/eyelight (talent backlit or in full shade)
Another possible scenario: cloudy day or talent is in the shade, work it a little from the side, to give some "wrap" to the face and build up the f-stop so the background doesn't totally blow out.
Or, talent is in the shade, and use it as a backlight.
Certainly it is not terribly useful in full midday sun. I'll probably wait until I can afford one of Richard's 1200w par Sportlights. :thumbup:
Barry_Green
Moderator
Should be better than a 650w fresnel with half-blue, certainly. Should be about twice as bright.
Cool Lights
DVXuser Sponsor
Well this is all the kind of stuff you like to hear. Thanks everyone for the kind and realistic words on our products. I think you all are understanding the spirit this stuff is being offered in pretty well. I like to say that we're here mainly for the person that writes their own checks and operates on their own budget. I really hope to pump out more of this CDM class this year in higher wattages as I think its really the future for those trying to operate in a daylight mode and also for trying to keep heat to a minimum too. If we can lick whatever noise problems we have left in the metal halide fixture lines and preserve our end customer cost we've really hit a home run at that point.
Cool Lights
DVXuser Sponsor
Here's my take on what's usable where when daylight is involved:
150 CDM indoors to fight minor daylight issues from windows
575w HMI indoors to fight medium daylight issues from windows and to some extent outdoors at night or during the day when overheads are used
1200w HMI indoors for major daylight issues and outdoors during the day and of course a good one for use at night.
2500w and 4000w HMIs are more commonly used in bigger budget productions outdoors however.
150 CDM indoors to fight minor daylight issues from windows
575w HMI indoors to fight medium daylight issues from windows and to some extent outdoors at night or during the day when overheads are used
1200w HMI indoors for major daylight issues and outdoors during the day and of course a good one for use at night.
2500w and 4000w HMIs are more commonly used in bigger budget productions outdoors however.
pmark23
Veteran
Thanks for the information everyone.
So, to recap, there are no issues lighting with mixed CDM and fluorescent? You can, say, have a fluoro fixture lighting one side of a face, and a CDM lighting the other side and there will be no colour difference?
I think the 150W fresnel CDM would be a great accent, eye, and hair light with either daylight or tungsten bulbs.
I'm not terribly concerned about things like durability and build quality as long as they work as intended. For the price I've spent on rentals in a year I could buy an entire kit from Coollights. The hassles of keeping my own gear in operating condition is preferable to the hassles of dealing with rentals.
For what it's worth, Dedolights buzz like mad. I made a preset filter for Vegas to get rid of it!
So, to recap, there are no issues lighting with mixed CDM and fluorescent? You can, say, have a fluoro fixture lighting one side of a face, and a CDM lighting the other side and there will be no colour difference?
I think the 150W fresnel CDM would be a great accent, eye, and hair light with either daylight or tungsten bulbs.
I'm not terribly concerned about things like durability and build quality as long as they work as intended. For the price I've spent on rentals in a year I could buy an entire kit from Coollights. The hassles of keeping my own gear in operating condition is preferable to the hassles of dealing with rentals.
For what it's worth, Dedolights buzz like mad. I made a preset filter for Vegas to get rid of it!
Cool Lights
DVXuser Sponsor
Yes, amazing isn't it? And look how much a dedolight is too.
There really is a secret to this quieting the ballast to complete silence in the metal halide world and I will eventually discover it but it does seem to be elusive. At least we don't have a fan to deal with there. My motto is you have to start somewhere and this is our start in the CDM world and it can only get better from here.
Last edited:
Barry_Green
Moderator
For $390 it's a heck of a start. I do like this little light quite a bit!