Mixer and Preamp Question

R

rickaction

New member
Hey there,

So I am an audio noob, but I did do some research through these threads and I understand that it is essential to have a mixer with a H4N or DR100.

I own this http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/300615-REG/Audio_Technica_AT897_AT897_Short_Condenser.html which I know is not the best mic, but hey it passes because of my budget.

My question is, if I was to purchase a good Mixer like a JuicedLink cx231 or better, could I purchase a less expensive recorder instead of the H4N/DR100? For example if I bought something like an H4 or something even less expensive? From what I understand it seems that the mixer is the most important part of the audio recording at this level so long as it is not plugged into the camera.

Have I completely misunderstood what I read about audio recording? Is there a better alternative? A little background is that I have used the H4N and had atrocious audio because of the harsh background noise with my microphone even in what seems like a quiet environment. I am also currently using a GH2.

Sorry if this has been answered before, or is a particularly stupid question. I'm just diving into the sound side of things to improve my videos. All help is appreciated.
 
Yes, No, Maybe.

A big weakness with cheap recorders is the analog portion so yes a mixer/ preamp will help with that. I'm not sure the mixers you mention are a big step up though.
However there are other features that better recorders have also. And a fantastic mixer wont help a noisy mic.

On the other hand I suspect that the noise you had was not the fault of the recorder. I suspect that the gain staging was off as in the sensitivity was low and you were cranking up the volume to compensate. I also suspect that the mic was not close enough. As a rule if the actor can't reach out and touch the mic it's too far away. If poss you should be with in a foot. If your close enough you won't have to crank the gain.

Some mics have lower outputs than others so with a soft mic and a not really sensitive recorder you could need the crank the volume higher than optimum.
 
The H4n/DR-100 IS a less expensive recorder. The AT897 is not a bad microphone, so if you are getting lots of "background" noise (not to be confused with self-noise from the electronics), then as Noiz2 pointed out, your problem is likely mic placement. 18" or closer to the talent is target distance. Anything further and you'll get more and more sound from the environment.
 
I believe that the AT897 is a more natural sounding mic to my ears than the competitors. But it's fallback is that it has a lot of self noise I find. As they had mentioned this could be the noise you hear.
 
When you refer to 'harsh background noise' with a certain mic, just what are you talking about? Do you mwan the sound of things around you interfering with the desired sound, like traffic noise if you're trying to record a stand-up interview next to a street, or are you referring to electrical noise that sound like a crackly-hiss when everything is completely silent?
 
I can tell you for a fact that the AT897 will work with a DR100, without a preamp or mixer, and get enough gain for decent audio. Now before anyone picks at me over that statement, I realize that neither piece of gear is top flight. I use both units for a car carry bag and use them together when I want a quick setup without getting out the artillery.

I would also say that a good mixer between the two is a good thing and provides more benefit than just better pre-amps and going line level.

Grant
 
Thanks Guys I appreciate all the help! For the mic set up I was close enough to the actors and had a boom right up next to them, however, I believe the problem lied in my ability to use the H4n having listened to your comments.

By "Harsh Background Noise" I am talking about the breeze (I should have been more specific). I used a wind muff and that saved some trouble, but the gain on the H4n made it pick up (or I felt like) than when I used the in-camera recorder. That being said, I know the H4n is far superior to in-camera recording by far, however, the levels where unusable for the subjects because the subjects were far overshadowed by the loud wind.

I ended up recording the scene twice with both audio, and ended up using the H4n sound, though it took hours back in post production with soundtrack pro to make it passable (eventually I will show it to Berger to have a go at it). I believe the issue lies in my ability to use the H4n gain functionality or that of the microphone (I've seen what the higher end stuff can do though way out of my price range).

I think for right now I am going to purchase a DR100 mainly because my initial testing of the H4n and their terrible manual has made it difficult to work with. I also like being able to control my levels on the XR Mic. I guess eventually I'll move up to a better shotgun mic and then eventually a better system. I really appreciate your guys comments. Hopefully I'll be more experienced next time I come here for questions. Cheers.
 
Gain (good or bad) will have no impact on whether the mic picks up wind sounds better or worse. What you're talking about is signal to noise ratio, and unless the problem is self-noise, which you say it's not, then the problem still lies with the microphone. By wind muff I suspect you mean a softie or some type of slide-on furry wind protection. That will only get you so far. Both Rode and Rycote are the leaders in this field. Other brands may look similar but not perform as well. In winds above 15 mph a softie won't be enough and the blimp, + windjammer is the key. My Rycote wind protection system has helped me get clean dialog in 30 mph wind. Also, have the boom close, and having it aimed correctly are two different things. Being aware of what's beyond the talent that may induce sound into the track is one of the things that help determine mic position and aiming. How did it sound when shooting? That's the time to make corrections.
 
As gpforet said you can't blame the mic or the recorder for wind noise. You need serious wind protection outside in anything over a calm day with VERY slight breezes. A zeppelin with a dead cat is about the only thing that will help.
 
"That being said, I know the H4n is far superior to in-camera recording by far"

That is probably true when shooting with a DSLR. The sound capability of a Pannasonic P2 series cam is respectable, and with regards to gain, has stronger pre amps than the cheapo recorders. That doesn't make it better, but it does make it easier, and no synch issue in post.

Grant
 
Equipment can sort of set a ceiling on quality but it doesn't set the floor. The person working the equipment is usually a more significant factor than the equipment itself. The H4n has some issues with UI etc but is perfectly capable of producing great results.

What I'm badly saying is don't fall into the trap of thinking that getting a better X will make your recording suddenly be better. They will get better as you learn. Once your pretty decent then is the time to start looking at getting a better box because then you know what YOU need in a box.

So you have decent choices now. You need some real wind protection though. I have seen zeppelins on eBay for around $100. A friend bought one and they are not the best in the world but they do work decently. The Rode should be a professional piece and is a good price, and then there is Rycote. Great zeps but it will cost more than your microphone. You can also, if need far exceeds pocketbook, build a zep. It's not particularly easy to do a good job and not end up with something that weighs a ton but it can be done.
 
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