Mixed 30p and 24p normal

longshanks

longshanks

Well-known member
Ok so I've shot some footage mainly 30p but it also has bits of 24p normal in it as well. When I bring it into FCP I capture DV-NTSC easy which works fine for 30p but the footage recorded as 24p normal is interlaced. Shouldn't both kinds of footage capture and edit seamlessly? Both clips are 29.97 with a 29.97 sequence timeline so I don't really know whats happening. Maybe this is a 3:2 pulldown issue with 24p normal?
 
Why would you think that 24p captured at 29.97 (which IS correct) wouldn't have interlaced frames?

The cadence added, yes -- 3.2 combines frames to make 30 from the 24 the 'shutter' took.

So yes... you'll end up keeping 'interlaced' (actually combined) frames. No way around that.

Good luck,

CaptM
 
24p normal IS 29.97. Panasonic calls that their "film look" setting. Back in the day (well, today too) movies, that are 24fps, that want to be shown on TV (29.97) must go thru a process called telecine. This combines frames with a pulldown cadence of 3.2 where it combines 6 sets of 4 frames to six sets of 5 frames per second. So, if your camera shot A B C D progressive frames, when it gets telecined (which really is the process from CCD to TAPE in the panasonic) it now has 10 interlaced FIELDS of AA BB BC CD DD.

Now, the reason it does this is two fold. ONE because you can't show 24fps on broadcast TV and TWO the cadence is 'pleasing to the eye' and has a 'film look' about it.

It is ONLY THRU THE GRACE of Cinema Tools (and other products too...) that you can remove this 'simple' cadence (3.2). But as Bossman said... then you'd end up with 30fps and 24fps footage and if you dropped the 24 into the 30 sequence it would force a cadence on it ANYWAY.

But that's not why we shoot 24p mode. We shoot 24p mode because we want a film look to the video. We DON'T want it 24fps, else WE'D SHOOT 24PA mode!!

24pA mode is Panasonic's answer to a true 24fps progressive shoot. Now, you MUST KNOW that mini-dv tape CANNOT HANDLE 24fps either (another reason to add a cadence). But THIS time they use an ADVANCED CADENCE or 2:3:3:2 to combine 6 sets of 4 to 6 sets of 5. Looks like this:
A B C D becomes... AA BB BC CC DD. Although this is called ADVANCED it actually is easier to remove than the normal simple cadence.

FCP on capture can flag/remove/ignore (whatever it does) that BC frame and simply pretend it is all good at 24fps. Now... this cadence is NOT SO 'pleasing to the eye' as the 3:2 cadence. So, if you were planning on wanting a 'film look' AND combining it with other material that is 29.97 you would NOT want to shoot this mode.

BUT if you wanted to stay 24 progressive frames start to stop -- THAT is the way to go.

Ok?

Hope that helps. Wish someone explained it to ME like that early on. I do want to thank Adam Wilt for explaining it to me when he did (5 some years ago now).

Good luck,

CaptM
 
Cool, thanks for explaining that, you've done it better than anyone else. However I learned about 24p normal and 24pA a long time ago when i got my camera (2:3 normal 2:3:3:2 advanced, cadences, etc.) But there are still some missing holes in my knowledge about it. But can you explain to me why I can't edit 24p normal in a progressive timeline? I am aware that both 24p and 24pa both record on a 29.97 stream on the tape with flags but aren't they both true progressive when the CCD scans it in this mode? Besides this, I haven't found a nice way to edit 30p or 24p in FCP without going to my browser window after capture and changing the field dominance to none BEFORE I start dropping clips into the timeline. Is there a better way to edit progressive footage?
 
24p and 24pA are both made of true progressive images and if you remove the pulldown, you can edit a true progressive 23.976 sequence. BUT you can't remove the pulldown and edit in a 29.97 sequence.
 
Yes... gets back to my original question. Frame rate isn't based on progressive or interlaced... the key bits are 30 vice 24.

Now, what you COULD do is conform all your 30 fps to 24!!! Good luck with THAT... you'd REALLY be pissed then!!!

(don't do it!)

CaptM
 
CaptainMench said:
...

So yes... you'll end up keeping 'interlaced' (actually combined) frames. No way around that.

Good luck,

CaptM
Click to expand...

Ok, so lets say I were to shoot only 24p normal footage, capture dv-ntsc easy, and export to web, it would be interlaced? (Keep 29.97 timeline with the cadence intact)
 
if you want a progressive output for the web, then shoot 24pA, remove the pulldown during capture, and edit on a 23.976fps timeline. then it will be progessive.
 
CaptainMench said:
Deep breathing ... DEEP breathing.

Mike
Click to expand...

Haha, easy now Mench, I'm still trying to wrap my head around this. I care more about being able to match 30p with 24p normal. That's why I chose 24p normal when I recorded thinking I could edit them both in the same timeline (29.97) and still retain the "film look" with the 24p stuff.

The problem I'm having however is that the 24p normal footage is interlaced and other 24p normal footage I've shot in the past ( if I remember right) wasn't.

Sorry if this seems so newbish to you, but I guess I haven't been throuough enough in my understanding of how this all works.
 
No... that adds a bit more to the puzzle. But rest assured... if you indeed shot 24p normal then it WAS combined with the 3.2 cadence.

Now, MAYBE you took the time to remove the 3.2 cadence in Cinema tools, but I doubt it.

Also -- wrap this around your head too...

Although I don't like to say FILM (because what we are dealing with is video... but I'm getting past that...) the 'film-look' you spoke of wanting to retain is EXACTLY what you go!! A 'film-look'. Remember 'film-look' is "FILM AS SEEN ON TV" -- not film as seen in the theater. So... when you say "I could edit them both in the same timeline (29.97) and still retain the "film look" with the 24p sutff." -- that is EXACTLY what you are doing.

Don't confuse 'film look' when talking about the dvx (or for that matter 24p) with 24 frames per second. They AREN'T the same.

THEN... keep this in mind too... if your sequence is 30 frames per second and you drop in a clip that is 30 fps it will work fine. IF you drop a clip that is 24 fps... doesn't it make sense that there would be 6 frames missing from each second? The sequence cannot change frame rate for every clip. So FCP must shoehorn the 24 in to match the 30 of the sequence - hence the render and the introduction of some odd cadence which would include interlacing.

This is a major thought flaw right now that you have to get over!! What happens when you get an HVX and have the option to shoot 60??

Mike
 
Ok,
I think I understand now, correct me if I'm wrong. The 3.2 cadence that 24p normal has will introduce interlacing in a 29.97 timeline in order to play correctly. Now if I strip that cadence in Cinema Tools or some other program and bring it down to 23.98 I can edit it in a 23.98 progressive timeline. Which obviously won't edit with a 29.97 timeline. Is this thinking correct?

Thanks for your patience with me :dankk2:
 
that is correct

although if you just shoot 24pA then you can remove the pulldown during capture and you won't need to involve Cinema Tools at all.
 
thanks guys! i actually shoot 24pA exclusively so i guess i didn't really understand how 24p normal worked.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top