Minimum requirement(s) for documentary project?

T

tirapell

Active member
I've read through hundreds of threads on this forum and have gained a LOT of knowledge in the process. However, the one disconnect is that many of you are "professionals" working on films purely from the audio side.

My question is, what would you recommend to be the minimum requirements for sound on a "follow-the-action" style documentary project? I do understand what would sound BEST (mostly from reading this forum), but as a person trying to perform all tasks at once, I'm looking for a minimum level of acceptable quality for this type of project. Not that I want the project to be of poor quality, but I just can't spend thousands of dollars for small incremental gains in audio quality.

Just some thoughts for you. Right now, I started the project (it's a year long) going with on-camera sound through a ME66. I'd like to move the sound off-camera but I wondered what others are doing and how practical it would be without shots that are "set-up". If I did move it off-camera, would it be wise to get a mixer to go with the project for the boom-op to listen to the sound? Right now, I'm listening to the sound through the camera on Sony 7506 headphones. I was also thinking of picking up the Oktava M012 to replace the ME66, as much of the shots are indoors albeit in large gymnasiums (not tiny rooms).

Anyway, if anyone has any experience with more 'run-n-gun' style docs and the sound expectations there, it would be greatly appreciated.
 
Two thoughts - stay with the me66 on camera for continuity. I think I'd rather watch a doc that had mediocre sound the whole time instead of one that switched to good sound in the middle somewhere. Rather distracting. If you've got good content I'd forgive bad sound.

As for the upgrade, I'm kind of in the same boat and getting ready to take that plunge into better but not really expensive audio. My plans are to get a couple of wired lavs (emw's probably), an oktava (ksm mount, bbg etc) and a boom pole, along with a mixer. Tempted to just go get the 302 as I know it will do everything I'll ever need it to do. Also tempted to spend half of the money and get an ENG-44. Or maybe I just need a mixpre. I'd definitely get something for the boom op to listen to though. Sound Devices does have a little box thats pretty much just a headphone monitor for the boom op that would be cheaper than a full blown mixer. Dont know much about it, but you might be able to save some dough there. Or just feed the audio out rca's to a long cord ziptied to your mic cable. Then have the boom op plugged in there and you can stay plugged in on the camera headphone jack. That'd be the cheapest way. Not the best, but cheap. And make sure you boom op has some 7506s or something of that nature as well. I've had mine for about a month now and just been floored by the sound quality. Apparently all of my other headphones suck really bad.
 
Thanks. It's tough to discern here what level people are talking about. The big thing for me is my documentary is on a group of people - a high school team actually. There is a lot of discrete dialouge that I'd like to capture. But honestly, I'm not sure having an Oktava and a Scheops mic makes all that much difference in the grand scheme of the documentary.

What I'm looking for is basic, hard-fast requirements to (a) capture the sound I'm looking to capture and (b) make sure it is of some acceptable level of quality. The big thing is, nothing is staged. It's my job to capture it the first time or not at all. I want the characters to tell the story, so I'm trying to capture as much dialouge as possible.

As far as your first comment, I'm only a week or two into a year long project, so a switch might not be a bad idea if for something dramatically better. At first, in the interest of money, I was thinking of just going off-camera with the ME66 on a boom and running that straight into the camera. But most of my doc will be shot indoors so then I started thinking about an Oktava M012. Of course the question of 'straight into camera' or 'mixer' always comes up, so I debated there.

Would going off-camera with the ME66 or Oktava on a boom help, even if run straight into the camera?
 
depends on how many subjects you have in the frame , if you have morte then 1 and you need pick up them , wierless setups would be you best friends with boom support .
is the mixer issential to your work\?, it is as long your boom operator know how to operate it and get the best from .
if you are going to use more then 1 mic out of the camera you can send the me 66 for retaiment and replace it with anything that can contribute with better sound .

if you are going to use microphone directloy to camera at least look for somethiong that have low fq atunuation to reed of rumbling noice and your boom operator hands - octava is not the best choice for that .
of course you can buy in line low fq filter which pass 48 ph (schoeps make one ) or use external power suply which have one
 
Having done a lot of post on docs I would say it's never too late to get better sound. You can always degrade the good stuff if it stands out too much. The biggest problem I encounter is that "being there" you as cameraman and director know what is being said . The poor viewer does not have that advantage. They can only get what they can understand so clarity is really key. To give some recording advice, based on a lot less experience than some others on this forum, if you can't get pretty close then the shot gun may be a better choice even in doors if your trying to capture dialog. For interviews etc that should not be the case. On board mic usually sounds pretty bad. It picks up all kinds of bumps and camera noise that will be hell to get rid of in post. I did do some doc ENG style shoots. I was using a MixPre and a short boom and a pair of Oktava's. The reason for the pair was I was also doing a bunch of FX recording and I didn't want to keep switching back and forth. They were both housed in the same zeppelin so it didn't look too strange. I probably would try to avoid that in the future because A) you have to angle the zep to get one of the mics in the right position and that looks a little weird (weird can be intimidating to the wrong subject) and B) it's twice the weight on the boom. We were almost always out side but as I said it was interviews and FX. Whenever we were close together - interviews- I was tethered to the camera. I was going in one channel and the on camera was going in the other. For FX I was on my own. The liked the stuff I recorded so much better than the on camera a mic that they ended up not using any of the on camera audio where there was a choice (some of the time I was recording FX they were doing some snatch and grab interviews. Most of this was on a less that spectacular DAT at 48/24 and the rest was on a Nagra V also at 48/16, they both sounded much better than the on camera mic.
 
i think that you can make some cable extention for cheap with oktava 10 db pads
to ruin a cople and make extention cable( 30-40 cm ) then place the secend capsule in the position you like inside the zepp .
 
Good advice. You are right about getting close. I probably should stay with a shotgun mic.

After reading, I'm thinking of just taking the ME66 off-camera on a boom. Would this work well for booming? Remember, minimum acceptable quality - not Spiderman 3 quality.

-Gitzo G-557 (max 8.7')
-AT8415 with K-Tek suspenders (B&H Kit)
-20' XLR cable (more or less?)

I also have 2 Wireless G2 mics for individuals, but there are so many subjects that a "general" mic is essential. I never know when good stuff/sound is going to happen, so I just have to be there and be prepared.

Now I just have the problem of 'direct input to camera' or 'into a mixer first'. I know my camera's pre-amps get pretty noisy above about 5 (of 10). Any suggestions here? I know the SD MixPre and 302 are highly recommended. I just wondered if the boom would be enough without the mixer.
 
and how do you want go with 3 mics in 2 channels .
good mixer in front will give you more choices to work with all your stuff at ones .

read off the sennheiser first and buy better mic , sanken cs-1 can work quit well for interiors and exteriors or for the same sum buy at -4073 and octava
 
Oleg 2 said:
and how do you want go with 3 mics in 2 channels .
Click to expand...
I wouldn't. I'd use 2 channels only. I would guess that 2 GOOD channels are much better than 3 crappy ones.

Oleg 2 said:
good mixer in front will give you more choices to work with all your stuff at ones.
Click to expand...
I understand that. But my question is, enough to justify the $1,000 expense (all-in) for this type of project. Remember, I don't do the type of work you do. This is all 'doc-type' stuff. I'm not arguing, just asking.

Oleg 2 said:
read off the sennheiser first and buy better mic , sanken cs-1 can work quit well for interiors and exteriors or for the same sum buy at -4073 and octava
Click to expand...
I have thought about selling the ME66, but I want to get a strategy before I just go purchasing equipment thinking it's going to solve all my problems. I do mostly interiors, but they are VERY LARGE spaces. Would that be more like an exterior then? Would I want to stay with a shotgun in these cases?

Any thoughts on the boom setup? Could this work for spontaneous capture of dialouge in a non-setup environment?
 
tirapell said:
I wouldn't. I'd use 2 channels only. I would guess that 2 GOOD channels are much better than 3 crappy ones.


I understand that. But my question is, enough to justify the $1,000 expense (all-in) for this type of project. Remember, I don't do the type of work you do. This is all 'doc-type' stuff. I'm not arguing, just asking.


I have thought about selling the ME66, but I want to get a strategy before I just go purchasing equipment thinking it's going to solve all my problems. I do mostly interiors, but they are VERY LARGE spaces. Would that be more like an exterior then? Would I want to stay with a shotgun in these cases?

Any thoughts on the boom setup? Could this work for spontaneous capture of dialouge in a non-setup environment?
Click to expand...


maybe ones you need to hire asoundman whith his gear and judge what you get when you work in normal way
its abit hard to advize someone who dont want to open the pocket :-)
everything cost money - esspesially solutions
the large space are more reverbing , so shotguns is not relly your best friend ( exept sanken cs-3, not in your money range)
try to wire the most important subjects and pick up every one else with a hyper on boom (sorry you need at least 2 channel mixer for that )
 
Oktava MK012 with hyper cardioid capsule $180 (sound-room.com) use the code "DV" for 5% off
K-Tek KSSM Shockmount with soft bands $120 (trewaudio.com)
Rycote Baby Ball Gag $140 (sound-room.com)
Rycote Furry Jammer $70 (sound-room.com)
Gitzo 12'5" carbon fiber pole (7560c?) $250 (provideoandtape.com)
Sound Devices Mixpre $665 (trewaudio.com) or SD302 if you can afford it
Petrol PSDMB-302 Mixer Bag $135 (trewaudio.com)
 
saneproductions said:
Oktava MK012 with hyper cardioid capsule $180 (sound-room.com) use the code "DV" for 5% off
K-Tek KSSM Shockmount with soft bands $120 (trewaudio.com)
Rycote Baby Ball Gag $140 (sound-room.com)
Rycote Furry Jammer $70 (sound-room.com)
Gitzo 12'5" carbon fiber pole (7560c?) $250 (provideoandtape.com)
Sound Devices Mixpre $665 (trewaudio.com) or SD302 if you can afford it
Petrol PSDMB-302 Mixer Bag $135 (trewaudio.com)
Click to expand...

This is the definative combo huh Mike? :)

I have checked your website and looked at your samples. Your sound is terrific. Is this what you use?

So basically what you're saying is use the Oktava inside and out on a boom. Use the Furry Jammer when outside. Run the Oktava though a mixer, either Mixpre or 302. Am I understanding correctly?

Thanks for your help.
 
Exactly, some of my stuff is oktava ($180), some is schoeps ($1700) it is hard to tell the two mics apart over the web. You should be happy with the oktava. I went with the 302 get that if you can, at very least get the mixpre.

Thanks for the compliment! I try hard.
 
Can someone LINK me to this item? I can't seem to find it anywhere, including Provideoandtape.com, B&HPhotoVideo, and the Gitzo website.

Gitzo 12'5" carbon fiber pole (7560c?) $250 (provideoandtape.com)
 
hmmm provideo and tape may still have one left in stock.

Gitzo just announced the new CF 12' pole at nab, it may not be in stores yet.
 
you may want to wait for that pole to be stocked at your local dealers. The next step up is a k-tek pole which are really nice but more that twice as much. You don't have to get a 12' pole, but I have found that it gets me into places I wouldn't be able to cover without it.
 
If anyone is interested, I found the replacement model for the 12' Gitzo boompole (replaces the G7680C):

Gitzo GB3560 6X Carbon Fiber Boom
 
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