Mini -Sun Gun hmi

S

Student

Well-known member
I need help from someone who has used a small HMI light --I have been working on several shots now for weeks using reflectors. (I have no A/C power near by). All the shots take place in the shade with many trees and no direct sunlight to work with. The area is bright but all diffused light. I need to have at least one source of light for dramatic effect and it needs to be bright. Reflectors just don't work in this situation. I hope this is enough info. Would a Frezzi Sun Gun HMI work here. And what wattage? 18w, 24w, or 50w.
I will be using a battery pack and stand and reflectors. Is there any advice anyone can give? I am also worried about
the HMI's flicker. Frezzi also makes a Micro fill 5600k 10watt HMi would this produce enough light for such a location?
I would be very thankful for help on this matter.
 
Re: Mini -Sun Gun hmi

Thanks phd
I already have one - nice little light but it won't light enough of the area I am shooting. Plus I need diffused light and 5600.
By the time I put a diffuser and a ctb on the paglight I have just enough light to light someone's face. I need to illuminate an area 20ft. by 20ft.
Have you ever used HMI lighting?
 
Re: Mini -Sun Gun hmi

have you considered using mirrors?

If you put a mirror out in an area lit by sunlight, you can reflect it wherever you want and as far as you want. You can also control the light's color and intensity with gels. It will give you HARD, FOCUSED, HIGH INTENSITY light that will give you some more shape on the subjects. And a lot cheaper than HMI's.
 
Re: Mini -Sun Gun hmi

Thanks taubkin'
I thought about mirrors, but I have never seen them used before. I didn't really think they were a prctical maybe I should considered that. Are these mirrors just your standard glass mirror or can any reflective surface (acetate) be used?
When the suns moves I will have to be readjust the mirrors or is there a special kind of mirror that wouldn't have to be adjusted so much? What size mirror shoild I use? Sorry for all the questions but I try to stay away from mirrors they break when ever I look at myself in them. :o

Ps -I would still be interest in any info anyone would have on HMIs
 
Re: Mini -Sun Gun hmi

Well regular glass mirrors do brake, so you can use anything that is silver finish. The better the mirror, the harder the light. But anything metalic can do. They work well and all correcting them from sun movement is much simpler than it seems. It's a minor adjustment before each take.
 
Re: Mini -Sun Gun hmi

Mirrors are the no-budget way to do what you're looking for.  Another less-breakable option may be to go to an industrial plastics supply place and get a roll of mirror plastic -- it's about 1/16" thick or so with a highly-reflective surface, looks just like a mirror, you could mount it to foam core or something and have probably 90% reflectivity but zero chance of breakage, and it'd be much lighter (hence easier to position and support).

For HMI's, to light up a 20x20 area?  Through a softbox?  Not gonna happen with 10 or 18 or 24 or 50 watts... the minimum to pull something off like that would be maybe a 575w PAR... I've got some 400w Briteks and even as raw hard light they'd have a tough time making a dent in a 20x20 area.  But you're talking about an on-camera HMI?  The little HMI's are used for things like news crews for on-camera interviews, not for filling up 20' x 20' spaces!

Look into the mirrors, with mirrors and bounce cards and butterflies that's likely going to get you the results you want.  The bigger the source you use, the less you have to move it -- something like an 8x8 butterfly frame will give you a decent amount of bounced fill light, but then you'll need a frame, some very heavy-duty stands, and lots of sandbags and probably some tie-down ropes as well... and some assistants... but as far as actual cash outlay it'd probably cost a lot less than just one 50W HMI on-camera light.
 
Re: Mini -Sun Gun hmi

Thanks Guys for your help.
Is a butterfly frame a frame that folds in the middle?
And how effective are reflectors on overcast or mainly cloudy days. I was looking into getting the HMI light because every time I get set put up for a scene I have areas in shadow. The style I'm working towards requires large shapes very well lite - what most would consider flat with very little areas of black. Not your typical indie film look for sure . More like a watercolor with washes of light instead of defining my composition with darks. I really like light. The DVX really likes the light also - when you get the lighting just right colors and shapes really pop out.
 
Re: Mini -Sun Gun hmi

A butterfly is a large frame, maybe 8' x 8', where you can mount various types of fabric in it. No, they don't fold at all, they're rigid solid metal frames.

And it would be basically useless on an overcast day, as would a mirror...

If you're on an overcast day, everything will be evenly and flatly lit anyway, which may match the look you're describing (unless I'm not understanding, which is probable). On a sunny day you could set up a silk in the butterfly and turn the sun into a 64-square-foot softlight. If you're setting up in a shaded area then you'd use a white fabric in the butterfly frame to bounce sunlight onto your scene.
 
Re: Mini -Sun Gun hmi

Barry is giving great advice. I can only add two more options. Uses mirrors to redirect the sun and shoot it thru a large silk located just out of frame.

Or buy some of that soft silver covered foam board from home depot. They come in 4'X8' sheets and can be cut to size. I used two once to match the power of the mid day sun from about 20' away and it had the softness of a HUGE chimera.

Either way your going to have to light from both sides to get rid of the shadows.

HMI's can work but your going to need the big boys and a few of them to have enough punch after passing thru a silk. $$$ Dont go down this road unless you are seriously worried about lossing the sun that day and have deap pockets.
 
Re: Mini -Sun Gun hmi

Technically, you're getting into overhead territory when you have an 8 x 8' piece of goods - they are supported by two stands, not one as a butterfly is.  Butterflies top out at 6' x 6'.  Splitting hairs here, but you might as well learn the right terminology so the guys at the rental house don't snicker every time you call!

In a pinch, some aluminum foil Super 77'd onto 1/2" x 4' x 4' foamcore will do - though it won't be quite as uniform as a Moleflector-style unit.  You can get pretty good at making these with a short practice session.  I recommend overlapping the foil slightly instead of trying to match up the edges in the center of the board. Like any fixture, these will add supplemental light into a larger area (at less lumens) the farther you have them from the subject / set. Close = smaller, harder & bright pattern; Far = larger, softer & dimmer pattern.

Take yours outside with a c-stand when you aren't under pressure to get a shot and play with it for awhile. You'll be surprised how much punch you can get with this style of board.

I have seen a couple of old key grips actually repair the feather grid in the field using Mole Richardson's kit, so you could ostensibly use same to create a feathered grid on your new piece...

http://www.msegrip.com/mse.php?show=product&cat=&products_ID=25777

Good luck!
 
Re: Mini -Sun Gun hmi

.
It seems I need larger reflectors and of course using mirrors to stream the light in from sunny areas. I thought using a portable HMI I could replicate a beam of sunlight, for example - by directing it's light through a bush or tree limbs I could cast a shimmering effect onto the subject . I'm not sure how I am going to do this with mirrors etc. Many of the shots I am working on also take place in the morning and the afternoon when the sun is low. Sometimes it helps me, but most of the time it's never where I want it. I hope I can take all ya'lls great advice and come up with what I'm looking for.
 
Re: Mini -Sun Gun hmi

DOH! Got my hairs split -- sorry. I'd always heard the term used interchangeably, but it makes sense that if there's one attachment point (6x6) vs. two (8x8 and above) that that would make for a different name.

An HMI would do what you want, but not as small as you're talking. A 1200W PAR (not fresnel) is probably the smallest fixture you'd be able to use to get the effect you're talking about.
 
Re: Mini -Sun Gun hmi

Ditto what Barry says! A 1.2k par hmi will rent for about $25 / day or $75 a week at most and should give you the punch you're lacking.

Cheers,

e
 
Re: Mini -Sun Gun hmi

Overlandfilms-
Hey maybe you can answer this for me. Technically whats the purpose of the loose grid patterned material on thoughs Mole reflector boards. I've used them many times but always wondered. The only thing I could think of is that it breaks up the reflecting light a bit more so its less likely to reflect a pattern like a soft square. Who knows?
 
Re: Mini -Sun Gun hmi

I can only guess that the feathers do something to the uniformity of the reflection - they're not deep enough to act as an eggcrate.

e
 
Re: Mini -Sun Gun hmi

..you can save some money on getting the reflective surface by just buying whatever color (gold -silver- half half-) you want from your local craft or gift store.. just buy wrapping paper. it comes in about any finish color and texture you could ask for. ive got a rough silver on the back of my white foam core board. puts out a nice soft non -glaring reflection from sunlight. its pretty durable its also easier to have the relfective surface break up the light a little like this then to set up another fixture to soften up the reflection. foil wrapping paper is tough, and durable. and cheap to buy alot of or replace. youd be amazed at how many differnt surface styles you can get as well . evrything from really rough to ultra snooth and shiney .. and all sorts of stuff inbetween. ;)
 
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