mikes for classical piano recording

C

c3kings

Well-known member
Dear All,
I am not sure if it is the most appropiate forum for me to ask the following question. However, as I am always getting my solution about my sound issues, so I just post my quesiton here first. If anyone knows any other better forum for my quesitons, please do inform me.
My situation is that I am going to make documentary of a pianist, and I need to film a lot of his piano playing. I am planning to use a DAT machine to record the sound with HVX200 to film the picture for his piano playing.
Now for the mikes, what I have now is a pair of Oktava with three caps and Senheisser ME66 and ME64.
The Oktava pair, in my opinions, are just so sweet for string instrument, and I just used it to record a X'mas concert of a piano trio, and the violin and cello sound are just beautiful. For ME64, it is very sharp and clear and records almost all the sound, in other words, wide spectrum and flat. However, I, and my classical string clients and friends, prefer using Oktava. Maybe, the Senheisser is really good for picking up ambient sound but "too real" for the ear of string players. (please correct me if my terms are not professional enough, as I do admit that I am not too familiar with sound recording skill yet.)
Now for the new film, my challenge is to record many paino pieces, and pianos have completely different way to create the sound from string instrument. I need people having more experience to tell me what kind of mikes I should use.
I think for the piano recording, I will still need a pair for stereo recording, and I don't mind to spend some money to get a better mikes.
Plesae give me advices. Also, if anyone knows any good classical recording fourm, please do tell me.
Many thanks in advance.
King
 
Thanks, CharlieG
PZM? I am sorry. I am not familiar with. Would you give me more information, please?
By the way, I just read some articles, and I think I need to clarify that I am recording a grand piano.
Thanks.
King
 
See http://www.dpamicrophones.com/ and their application guide for Grand Piano recording. Of course they recommend their own mics (which are great), but you could use your Oktavas in a similar way. If you need to mic the piano so that the mics do not show, then a pair of DPA miniatures would be great.
 
DO NOT use mics inside the piano for classical piano recording. If you have a good-sounding hall, you want to be fairly far from the piano - ideally at least the length of the piano.

Pop and jazz techniques are very different, and capture a very different sound - much more of the piano mechanics, and much closer. However, the sound of "a piano" does not exist any where near the instrument. A grand piano is LARGE, and the actual blended piano sound desired for classical recording only exists at some distance.

In classical recording, we say "the hall is the most important instrument". If the hall sounds nice, be far enough away that you capture the hall's ambiance.

I'd suggest, as a starting point, your Oktavas, with omni caps, about 5 feet in front of the piano; with one mic in line with the stick, one in line with the "tail" of the piano.

If the hall is noisy, or not great sounding, use the cardioid caps, start farther back, and move in towards the piano until you get the balance you want.

Vertically, the mics sould always pretty much bisect the angle made by the piano lid.

Listen for the pianists's breathing or humming, and perhaps move the left side mic to compensate.

Listen for squeaky bench noises and pedal noise. Often placing a piece of carpet under the bench which extends to under the pedals will help.

The Oktavas are a great starting point. I record pianos about 100 times a year on average, and have many different mics in all price ranges. The Oktavas are very forgiving and flattering, and when I'm in a situation that doesn't allow a lot of fine tuning, they're often what I reach for. So if you're not the most experienced recordist, they're also a great choice. Many of the supposedly "better" mics are much trickier to work with to get the best sound, especially with frequently-encountered "harsh" pianos. Keep in mind also that "great piano mics" are often called that in reference to non-classical recordings.

With ANY piano micing advice, ALWAYS make sure you're aware of the pop/classical distinction. I've seen plenty of "experienced recordists" really botch a classical recording because they have no experience with classical techniques. They're rarely taught in todays education programs!

Hope this helps,
Barry
 
Barry,
You are the man!! I read your article many times and make sure I understand everything. I will follow what you said as the starting point.
By the way, I visited your web page and listened to Nadia's recording. Is it your work? It sounds great!!
Actually, what I am going to do is very similar what you have done, and mine is a documentary of a pianist.
May I get more advices from you: Do you suggest me to get a seperate recorder, like old Tascam DAT or Sound Devices, to record the music or just go through a mixer and directly to HVX200?
Also, what would you do to record string instrument? Are you also based on your rule, "the hall is the most important instrument?" Therefore, the mike placement is actually quite far from, say, the violin. Actually, I may need to record a piano trio in this documentary.
Also, I totally agree with you that the classical recording techniques are rarely taught. In fact, I have found few books, but it seems that they are talking about Jazz or pop recording. Do you have any good books for classical recording to recommend?
Again, thousand thanks!!
King
 
(See, Oleg already wants to close-mic everything!)

Thanks for the kind words, King! And yes, I did the recording of Nadia... there's a video somewhere (I really need to update the web site with more recording samples!).

I almost always record dual system, and so have a lot of material for comparison between the HVX/DVX and other recorders (mainly ProTools and MOTU Rigs and the MicroTrack) using the same mics and preamps. If you listen to the HVX or DVX recordings, they sound pretty good... but if you compare, especially quiet parts, you notice a lot more noise in the HVX/DVX than even the MicroTrack. So I'd suggest using an external recorder... with an external preamp/mixer, the MicroTrack's not bad! I'm sure any of the SD recorders would be great if you can afford them. The main trick is getting your levels right, 'cause of the extreme dynamic range of the piano.

I've used a MixPre for a number of recordings recently, which works well with the Oktavas but might have trouble recording a grand piano with higher-output mics. For a cheaper option, if you have power, I've done a lot of recordings with a Presonus BlueTube, which can actually help a bit in taming over-harsh pianos.

For chamber groups, yes, you want to use the hall if you can, and capture the blend of the musicians... which means getting far enough away! The tricky part here is often to make sure the piano doesn't overpower the strings. To adjust this, you kind of move the mics with an eye on the RELATIVE distance from the piano and the other instruments. The violin projects upwards, so you want the mics to be fairly high... if you follow the quideline of keeping the mics more or less bisecting the angle of the lid, and put them out in front of the group, they'll be at a reasonable height for all the instruments.

With strings, you want to be far enough away that you pick up the "singing" of the instrument without too much of the scratchy sounds (though, with some players, and some instruments, this never happens; and sometimes the room is too reverberant for this to work well). To avoid scratchiness, you can also play with the axis of the mics (that is, where they're pointing) - for high-pitched scratchy noises, even "omni" mics are pretty directional. Changing the angle of a cardioid mic by a few degrees can be very effective. (If you're using a coincident micing technique, you change the angle of the whole mic array).

Don't be afraid to "break the plane" - you may find that putting your mic setup at a 45-degree angle to the stage lets you balance the musicians better, etc. (this often helps to keep the mics out of the way of the video, as well). You have to experiment, but as long as the mics are in a good relationship to each other, you can move your whole mic setup around in interesting ways.

For a chamber group, especially a trio, a near-coincident mic setup is often preferable because of the visual aspect - the single stand in the center doesn't block any of the musicians too much, while the two stands used in spaced techniques will block some of the musicians from many angles.

I hope this makes some sense; it's a lot of information.

As for books - by far the most useful recording book I've dealt with is the "New Stereo Soundbook" (http://www.stereosoundbook.com/). Get it, it'll give you a really solid grounding. But it doesn't have a lot of practical advice/examples - for that I've found either web-searching or watching other engineers in practice to be the best thing. For classical, the apprenticeship system still seems to be the rule...

Hey, where are you located?

-Barry
 
as i understand he would record not only strings .that would be enouth get separation , for only chello or strings qurtet you can go about 2-3 mters infront for placing stereo setup ,
placing mics is usially directed by the hall and the ansamble
 
Barry,

I've been recording concerts by a chamber group for the last couple of years and your recommendation is very close to what I do. I have an Oktava pair at the edge of the stage (one R the other L). I set them pretty much as you would set speakers. About 30 deg up and ~~30 degrees L/R of center (usually a bit wider because of the stage. Taking the center instrument hight as the "sweet spot". The group changes in size piece to piece (new music) but the recordings have been consistently good. Of course this is a very nice sounding hall. The cellist was VERY happy with a solo piece she did and she is very picky.
Part of why this kind of setup works so well is that your recording at about where the speakers would be on playback, so you get a much more "performance" sound. When everything is close miced you get a very "studio" sound.
 
Oleg - right; but for classical recordings in general you don't want separation as you would in other types of music. The 2-3 meters is a good starting point. You want to be far enough away that you get the blended sound of both instruments, and high enough in the air that your in the "projection area" of both instruments. The cello projects perpendicular to the strings, which depending on the player is usually 20-35 degrees off the flloor; a violin projects similarly, so due to the way it's held, it's more like 50-90 degrees off the floor; the grand projects up off the soundboard and bounces off the lid, for something like a wide 15-50 degrees off the floor; just project all these out and you'll know exactly where to start placing the mics ;-). Sorta. From there you experiment.

Noiz - yes, it's a good "safety" setup that'll sound pretty good for most things. If you're using AB cardioids, sometimes you get some sound varioation if a singer or standing string/wind player sings out in different directions... when using AB cards on small chamber groups, for this reason, I tend to point the mics towards the center, rather than straight ahead, especially for singers.... it tends to keep the sound from getting as much off-axis coloration and volume change as they project differently.
Also, when dealing with typical classical performances, there can be a lot of variation in where the performers end up standing/sitting as they (and pianos, and music stands) move on and off stage between pieces. Farther placement reduces the risk of something really ugly happening!


Some people (many halls) use X-Y as their standard or "safety" setup, but it's not a very spacious or beautiful sound, and almost everything is sorta off axis. I like ORTF better in many cases, but it again has some off-axis sound problems - especially with singers, where again their head motions can cause really weird transitions. So for the last few years I've been happiest with spaced setups, omni or cardioid depending on the hall, and sometimes a Decca Treeish setup.

However, for live events often the visual impact is the most imprtant deciding factor - most classical musicians and audience are very particular about keeping setups unobtrusive; and since I'm often shooting video as well, I often cater to that as well. So (assuming, as in most cases, that I can't hang mics from above), I might put spaced cards at waist height for a singer, sometimes use stage boundaries, sometimes resort to close-micing everything... sometimes switch between setups if the situation demands (e.g., at a recent orchestra concert, the last number (Dvorak's Slavonic Dances) actually had dancers, so as they rearranged the stage I dropped my AB-card mic stands to about knee level and aimed to catch the reflections off the ceiling/walls... as a result of extensive testing at the rehearsals - which compromised the sound a tad, but tremendously improved both the live audience experience and the video. Testing is everything in this kind of situation... the precise angle of the mics made a big difference that I couldn't have just guessed at, and if I didn't know for sure I could get fairly decent sound this way, I would certainly not have tried it!). Certainly not a single tall stand centered in front of a soloist or double stands blocking two members of a trio (I've seen plenty of heinous examples!).
 
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