Midlevel Audio Advice

jls4

jls4

Veteran
My first post in a long time.

Background: 2 Features, 1 in distribution, 1 finishing up currently.
Personal Strong Points: Writing, Producing, Directing
Budget: $20K to $30K (for equipment)
Current Items Owned: Sound Devices 702T, Sennheiser 416, Monster Cables, Compact flash Cards, Boom Pole, 6 sound blankets, Fuzzy, High Quality Sennheiser ($100+) headphones

I've been reading a lot of posts because I don't like to ask questions that have already been asked a zillion times. Audio is extremely importaint: 40 to 50% of the movie going experience. It has also been my weakest point. And while the easiest answer is always "Hire a great audio person", I recently found a guy who knows a lot about audio (more on the using on set side) but he's far from super pro. And unless you'll have a person in the ATL willing to work for points, it's a mute point to go any further down that path.

That being said, my current movie has what I would consider good audio. Not great audio, but good enough for a small indie. (Basically I've heard worse, and my 1st distributed movie had awful audio. I'm now about 9 times better.) I've heard a lot about mixers. Can someone explain more about the benefit of them.

(Like a few people on this board, I have to kinda learn most of the info and relay it to my crew. Then do test after test until we get it right. Trust me, I think most of us don't want to do it this way)

Also, I would like to know (without regarding prices) what are the best steps to go from here. I put over $5K into audio in the last movie, and I'm willing to put more money into the next movie in reguards to audio. I'm learning while most indie's put most emphasis on the camera. where much of the quality comes from is Audio and Lighting.

So do I need to get a 302 mixer from Sound Devices? MixPre?
Is this the best mixer? Do I need (as someone said in another post) to get a Hyper Cardiod Mic? Change the mics for the different environments?
What mic works well in certain areas? (Houses, Cars, Houses with Wood Floors, Outside, Warehouse)
Can you really limit sound on set? I mean say you have an AirConditioner in another room that is causing 2dB of sound and the actors are speaking around say, 6dB is it possible to get rid of the 2dB?
What if the actors speak softly every 10th word? (In the above scenario)

Is there anybody out there in ATL that just wants to join a good group. I've finally got off my butt and I'm making a move to make a string of movies. The first is in editing, and I plan on working on a horror film in a few months.

Wow! that's a lot! :Drogar-BigGrin(DBG)
 
what are the best steps to go from here. I put over $5K into audio in the last movie, and I'm willing to put more money into the next movie in reguards to audio.
Click to expand...
Making sure to use proper technique with your equipment will be most crucial to getting good sound. Getting close range solid sound without echo or spatial noise is key as well as understanding the polar patterns of the mics you use. I suggest purchasing the "Sound for Film and Television" DVD that Barry, Matt and David released here ... http://dvxuser.com/articles/dvxshop/SoundDVD/

So do I need to get a 302 mixer from Sound Devices? MixPre?
Is this the best mixer?
Click to expand...
Both are good and your choice would depend on how many mics you want to run at the same time. Two ways that you will benefit from using a small mixer are that you can use the preamps in the mixer (preamps that amplify mic level sound to line level sound) and feed line level out of the mixer so that you bypass the inferior, often times noisier preamps built into camcorders ... and you can control and monitor levels independantly at the mixer, often times allowing for the boom op to make adjustments independantly from the cameraman.

Do I need (as someone said in another post) to get a Hyper Cardiod Mic? Change the mics for the different environments?
Click to expand...
A good hypercardioid would be preferred over a shotgun in indoor environments, only because it will have less of a chance picking up reflective sound and will have a broader polar pattern that may lend to a little less restrictive booming.

Can you really limit sound on set? I mean say you have an AirConditioner in another room that is causing 2dB of sound and the actors are speaking around say, 6dB is it possible to get rid of the 2dB?
Click to expand...
The first line of defense would always be to eliminate or avoid sound that you don't want to record altogether. You can try to limit unwanted sound, and can usually get fairly good results, by simply moving the mic as close as possible to the wanted source, therby amplifying the source sound level as much as possible, allowing you to lower recording volume levels and thus lowering the noise floor.

What if the actors speak softly every 10th word?
Click to expand...
If it is noticeable to you, then it would be noticeable to your audience and I would recommend doing a retake of the scene.
 
Last edited:
you can get this combo with power supply and capsule for about $350-375
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...icrophone.html

I suggest the k-tek KSSM shockmount with soft bands. $120

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...ock_Mount.html

Windscreen is the Rycote BBG $140
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...indshield.html

if you want to shoot outside too, get the furry jammer for $70 more.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...Baby_Ball.html

Here is the boom I suggest, a 12' gitzo carbon fiber.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...on_Carbon.html



For your 416. Rycote S Series $350
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...hield_Kit.html

or the K-Tek K-Zepp
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...sion_Med_.html


A few cables (good)
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc... e_Cable.html

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc... crophone.html

Get the SD302 or the SD442 if you can afford it and you need 4 channels (I love my 302) the mix pre is not good enough for what you want to do.
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/292980-REG/Sound_Devices_302_302_Portable_3_Channel.html

Your mixer will need a bag (this one is for 302, look for an erganizer if you get a 442).
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...Mixer_Bag.html


I am not saying you have to buy it from this vendor, but it is nice to have links with pictures and model numbers all from one place.
 
Last edited:
John - Thanks. We try to keep the ambient sound as low as possible on set. For the last film, if Ambient was higher than 1dB (according to the SD 702T) then we'd stop and try to find what was making noise. We don't record to the camera. I stopped doing this a while back. I record to the 702T using Compact flash at 24Bit/96Khz. I noticed that with the Senn 416 that when we point the mic at the actor's mouth then the sound was "Warm" (if that's the term) and cold if not. So we have both "Warm" and "Cold" sound through out the movie, but you can hear everyone easily. I was trying to see if there was more I could do in environments that I can't control. I'll definately get a Hyper Cardiod Mic that we can use for the next movie.

As for the mixer, last time we only had one mic, so we didn't have more then one signal. On a set how often do people have more than one audio signal?

What do you think about clip ons for times when you can't get close to the actor?

I'll definately be getting the Audio DVD. I just saw it today. I have a lighting DVD at home and it helped out a lot. I'll try to get the DVD watch it myself and make sure my audio guy watches it too.

Sane - Thanks. I buy most of my stuff from B&H. They are cheaper than any place I've found in Atlanta and have great Customer Service. I'll take a look at the SD442. I didn't know what the "Furry Jammer" was called. I just called it fuzzy above. :-)

Anything else? Sould I use 2 boom operators? Can a boom operator do all I need or do I need 2 people on sound?
 
It depends on the scene. You should record on seperate tracks if possible. The AKG blueline is cheap enough to get two.

Note that the BBG, Jammer, KSSM are all for the hyper cardioid and I suggested two options for Zepplins for your 416
 
On a set how often do people have more than one audio signal?
Click to expand...
Not often in my own experience but I could see it happening easily if multiple sources of sound are occuring at the same time in different locations.

What do you think about clip ons for times when you can't get close to the actor?
Click to expand...
You should exercise a fair amount of play in riding the frame line with a boom mic, because typically the variance in sound plays to the senses to a certain degree, meaning that you expect to hear close dialog from a closeup shot and slightly more distant dialog from a medium shot. However using a clip-on lav does become prudent when going to very wide shots, whether you clip it on the talent or place it somewhere nearby the talent. You don't want the mic to be far enough away that you introduce too much echo or noise.

Sould I use 2 boom operators? Can a boom operator do all I need or do I need 2 people on sound?
Click to expand...
Use one boom op with a preamp and someone at the mixer if you can get away with it but don't sacrifice. You may have a dynamic scene that calls for recording actors with two booms. It all depends on how the scene is staged and blocked. Another good investment would be to check out the Hollywood Camera Work DVD set for optimizing your scene setups for effective emotional impact as well as dynamic set up. The link is here ..
http://www.hollywoodcamerawork.us/?s=gmain&gclid=CLPCl6HJ2JMCFRIkxwoda1CESw

If the scenes are typically one boom mic with a planted lav, you should be ok with a boom op and a sound mixer op. There are more knowledgeable, more experienced people than me on this forum that might be able to give a more realistic answer when working on a complex set.
 
If you need 4 channels the 442 is great, but if you need a great small mixer, the 302 is perfect (much lighter than the 442). How many tracks can you record? If you start getting into a lot of tracks, a good option is a cart mixer and boom recorder with a laptop.
 
Thanks everyone for your responses. I feel very confrotable in moving along to get the mixer. I may go ahead and take Sane's advice on the 442, simply because I'm a believer in slightly overdoing it. To me I'm currentl yonly using 1 stream of sound, but know I'll probably use 2 one day. So to have something that can handle 4, while it maybe a little overkill, if the price is not too far off, I'd rather have too much than too little and have to rebuy. I also plan on checking out the DVDs you guys mentioned.

In the last movie, like I said out audio was okay. I think the average Video Market will be okay with it. But I want to improve with every movie that I work on.

Any of you guys have any advice for Post Audio?
Currently I've been mixing using Premiere and I use Audition for filtering and to change Dynamic Range. Overall Audition has done, in my opinion, a great job. But you never know how good other programs can be until you've tried them. I mean every child I know loves Cheese Pizza until their tastebuds mature and they end up liking Combination. :Drogar-Happy(DBG):
 
jls4 said:
Thanks everyone for your responses. I feel very confrotable in moving along to get the mixer. I may go ahead and take Sane's advice on the 442, simply because I'm a believer in slightly overdoing it. ...
Click to expand...

Great thing about the 442 is that it has multiple outputs isolated from each other, so if you have a multicam shot you can feed stereo to two cameras, plus a recorder, plus even a transcription recorder if you need one.
 
Thanks Steve - for your advice

Sane - Back to the AKG. Is that the best, or will I not notice any sound differences in that one vs a better one.

Right now the SD 442 at $2500
with the AKG Mic Approx $450

That's not that much, as far as I'm concerned on audio. If I need to put in another $800 or so for more quality then I'm all for it.

I always buy everything, and my goal is to stretch my budgets so I get the best. That way I just buy one time and from now on I can shoot at least on the level of my last project. But if I'm at top level, then I'm good.:love4:
 
with 1 mic you dont need any mixer , with 2 the same.
instead 44 2 inves i n 2 wireless systems with 2 good lavaliers and used eng mixer , something like wendt or ad 260 you can find for less then agrand

there is more benefit have more choices to record then mixer which does nothing beyond your recorder .

if you have some extra cash i will sudgest you to sell your recorder and buy used pd-6 instead . the benefit for 1 grand you will have better mixer then 442 , 1-6 iso tracs and ability work normaly with one box

about 416 , the mic has extra proximity efect , one of the worst to be in close range , when you point it ,try go betwen the mouth and the midle of chest .

invest in cardioid capsule and not only hyper , usially sounds better and give you opertunity to work when booming is not avalible .
acustics is about 90% of the movie , so before you invest in mics which worhless with bad acousics , try to arange money to impruve it , and then you will be able worjk with shotgun without any problem :-)


and sorry , why the f .. you recorded 96 kh :-)
 
Steve House said:
Great thing about the 442 is that it has multiple outputs isolated from each other, so if you have a multicam shot you can feed stereo to two cameras, plus a recorder, plus even a transcription recorder if you need one.
Click to expand...

waist of money for feature work , at least what that guy trying to do
 
$5000 can buy you a decent soundman for your film if you negotiate well (YMMV depending on location and negotiatiation skills). The experience behind the equipment is infinitely more important to your end results then owning a bunch of professional equipment.

If you are willing to put more into equipment why do you hesitate to invest in to experience to actually record your audio? Why can you only offer points if you have money to invest in audio? Moot point or not I am confused by your situation.

Hiring a pro will get you all the equipment you need, including wireless, which every production eventually will need.

If you are going ahead with this guy you found have him do the leg work on what equipment he feels comfortable working with.

Of course, post comes with it's own set of expenses but since that question was not raised I assume you know what you are doing there.

Cheers
 
Oleg 2 said:
and sorry , why the f .. you recorded 96 kh :-)
Click to expand...

I didn't know much about Audio. (My bkg is in Photography and videography) I'd rather record with more than less. You can always go down, you can't however go up. So at the time 96Khz is twice 48Khz so it makes since that it would be better if I needed it. The difference in the recording price is only $60.
 
wabbit said:
$5000 can buy you a decent soundman for your film if you negotiate well

If you are willing to put more into equipment why do you hesitate to invest in to experience to actually record your audio? Why can you only offer points if you have money to invest in audio? Moot point or not I am confused by your situation.

Hiring a pro will get you all the equipment you need, including wireless, which every production eventually will need.

Of course, post comes with it's own set of expenses but since that question was not raised I assume you know what you are doing there.

Cheers
Click to expand...

Actually I don't really hesitate. I'd love to find somebody. What I've run into though is a lot of people who first of all, stick to their guns on their pricing. And then are quick to leave if they find another gig that pays more.

I can't afford to be on set and loose people and then I can't shoot. So my philosophy has always been to learn as much myself and find other people who are up and coming and to teach them as much as I can/ or they can learn on their own.

I've had problems with crew every single time I've had them. So if you know anybody in Atlanta, like I said earlier, let me know! I'd love to talk with them. but everybody I run into either knows a little (like the guy I have) or knows everything (but does so much work in ATL [since there are not a lot of people doing stuff here] that they won't budge on prices) Remember we have a lot of TV, like Turner, CNN, etc, but only a few movies. So Sound and Video people work alot, but it's not like in LA where you have crew everywhere. Also, if I run late or need two extra days to shoot. It doesn't cost me anything and I don't have to go looking for money - which belive it or not is not my strong suit. I just know you need something. I think most "indies" think movies can easily be made for used car prices.
 
Last edited:
Again thanks for everyone's responces thus far. If you want, you can PM me your real name and I'll give you a Thank You in the Credits for the new movie. I truly believe in that. Help is help. And it is much appreciated. Hopefully I can get the Audio much closer to what I want. I've improved with each movie and I plan to keep improving.

While there's debate on if I need the mixer since I only have 1 maybe 2 streams of audio - the AKG Microphone Kit with Power Module and Hypercardiod Capsule are still a good buy, right?
 
I have the Blue Line AKG SE 300 B with the CK93 hypercardioid capsule and I like it very much. It gets very nice sound when used at close range (12 to 18 inches) and does halfway decent lower end sound at farther distances when Ive recorded speakers at corporate conferences. It's my main workhorse microphone and I recommend it very much. Some people like the AKG ULS series which is a little spendier than the Blue Line series, so you might want to research those as well, as I've heard good things about them also.

So yeah, I'd say the AKG is a good buy for sure :thumbsup:
 
jls4 said:
... And unless you'll have a person in the ATL willing to work for points, it's a mute point to go any further down that path. (DBG)
Click to expand...

What is the ATL?

Anyway I would repeat the others that your better off with a sound person, but you know that.

Equipment and software is not as important as skills. If your post has problems it's probably not the software that is lacking, it's the operator. That may seem like a dig since I take it you are the operator but it's just a fact. I do sound all the time. Mostly post. It takes doing it all the time to be good at it. I do some production. I'm not bad at production and I had many years of live sound so I am fairly experienced, but I do post every day not production and that means I'm not a great production recordist. If you try to do everything you will do everything less that really well. More likely you will do something pretty well and sort of suck at others. If you want to up the quality of your films you should look hard at what you don't do well and find someone who does do it well and hand it off to them.

Getting more production equipment is probably not going to make as big a difference as getting some good post done. Unless you have serious equipment related noise problems. If your actors are flying all over the place in performance, DIRECT them, or get a GOOD mixer/boom operator who can follow the antics. Post will add the polish one expects from a "Hollywood" film, and almost never sees in indies. But it has to be done by someone who knows what they are doing. If your going to do it then hire or trade sexual favors or whatever to get someone who knows what they are doing to give you a day or two of training. If you want the polish it takes time and lots of tracks. You WILL have to go out and record stuff and do Foley. You won't be able to just download free sounds and use production. You can't use just one background track etc. If your not doing those basics your not going to even get in the ballpark.

And stop recording production at 96k. Sure drive space is cheap but your not getting any advantage and your bogging the system down with useless bits. It's the time that is the big cost not the storage. Production is to record the dialog, your not trying to capture bats. Some (very few) FX we record at 96 but that's mostly because we will be slowing them down.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top