Michael Moore gets sued for documentary
- Thread starter Rasquachemedia
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KOVAROVA
Veteran
don't have that MM link but here is the moment when politics became a no no here.
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showpost.php?p=89232&postcount=30
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showpost.php?p=89232&postcount=30
Barry_Green
Moderator
And yes it applies to the Cafe...
valdez
Active member
Sorry about the rant there,
I just don't think it's particularly a political issue. more one of the ol' "what is documentary?" question. I think if you work in docs it's easy to stand hard on some of the modern stuff and say it's too much or too doctored, but documentary has always been about delivering a story of something you believe you experience in your closest approximation of the way you think you saw it and recorded it, in a way that can be understood by many others. It's no cake walk, and it'll never be true to life.
I never sign releases myself and never appear in anything, probably because I know from experience what can be done. It's also nice to not appear in any of those dorky "making of" extras on DVD's. Anyway, I'm done with this thread, I've already embarrased myself with a rant.
I just don't think it's particularly a political issue. more one of the ol' "what is documentary?" question. I think if you work in docs it's easy to stand hard on some of the modern stuff and say it's too much or too doctored, but documentary has always been about delivering a story of something you believe you experience in your closest approximation of the way you think you saw it and recorded it, in a way that can be understood by many others. It's no cake walk, and it'll never be true to life.
I never sign releases myself and never appear in anything, probably because I know from experience what can be done. It's also nice to not appear in any of those dorky "making of" extras on DVD's. Anyway, I'm done with this thread, I've already embarrased myself with a rant.
wabbit
Evil has Ears
See nothing to be embarrassed about with your posting...except maybe your stingy use of paragraphs. 
It's good to have an open discussion of what makes a documentary good and/or ethical. MM is certainly a polarizing figure in that debate and often leads to the arguement going polical, then all bets are off.
I for one enjoyed everyone's thoughts here.
Cheers :beer:
It's good to have an open discussion of what makes a documentary good and/or ethical. MM is certainly a polarizing figure in that debate and often leads to the arguement going polical, then all bets are off.
I for one enjoyed everyone's thoughts here.
Cheers :beer:
valdez
Active member
I don't intend to defend MM, I don't agree with all that he does, but to call his films less documentary or more fictional than others is kind of silly. To expect "truth" or "honesty" from documentary is just misguided. Truth is relative, especially in terms of media; because something is cut in a more traditional or stuffy manner doesn't make it more "true". Often it only means that details have been left out, glossed over, and packaged for easy, comfortable viewing.
Watch Alan Berliners' docs. They're wierd and creative and don't intend to tell traditional narrative about a given historical period, but that doesn't make them less documentary.
I think the only real truth is in human experience itself, once humans begin to interpret for the purpose of passing on (i.e. oral history, recording, photographing) "truth" is all subjective, no matter how careful you are.
Obviously some take many more liberties with thier topics than others but who are we to say which ones can be deemed "documentary" and which can't. If someone doesn't agree with MM's politics, great. But when you watch one of his films it's obvious he's not trying to make a romantic comedy or sci-fi epic in the traditional sense of "fiction film". Duh, it's extremely opinionated and editorialized, so what? It's still documentary, stylisticly speaking at least. "Ray" was obviously a real person with many of the same real experiences as in that film, but that film was clearly not a documentary. I think generally speaking the genre differences are pretty obvious.
Why can't people just be fair about what things are without getting all worked up about it?
Watch Alan Berliners' docs. They're wierd and creative and don't intend to tell traditional narrative about a given historical period, but that doesn't make them less documentary.
I think the only real truth is in human experience itself, once humans begin to interpret for the purpose of passing on (i.e. oral history, recording, photographing) "truth" is all subjective, no matter how careful you are.
Obviously some take many more liberties with thier topics than others but who are we to say which ones can be deemed "documentary" and which can't. If someone doesn't agree with MM's politics, great. But when you watch one of his films it's obvious he's not trying to make a romantic comedy or sci-fi epic in the traditional sense of "fiction film". Duh, it's extremely opinionated and editorialized, so what? It's still documentary, stylisticly speaking at least. "Ray" was obviously a real person with many of the same real experiences as in that film, but that film was clearly not a documentary. I think generally speaking the genre differences are pretty obvious.
Why can't people just be fair about what things are without getting all worked up about it?
Blaine
Mr. Hollywood
Here's the dictionary's definition of documentary:valdez said:
documentary |?däky??ment?r?| adjective consisting of official pieces of written, printed, or other matter : his book is based on documentary sources. • (of a movie, a television or radio program, or photography) using pictures or interviews with people involved in real events to provide a factual record or report : he has directed documentary shorts and feature films.
noun ( pl. -ries) a movie or a television or radio program that provides a factual record or report.
In Over My Head
Member
Personally, I think it is important to use integrity, and honesty, when editing. There are people with whom I disagree politically, and if I were making a film would show them as I see fit, HOWEVER, I would not trick, or deceive them, nor would I take something out of context to make my point. I remember a political ad that had a congressman making a comment about social security, the ad made it sound like he wanted to kill it. I remember the speech they took it from, had they put it in context, he was warning about what would happen if a policy someone was pushing came to be. To me, that is just plain wrong. You may as well take yes and no answers, and put them after questions that were never asked, (like Jay Leno does at times in his comedy bits). Funny when Jay does it, sad when others do it in the name of "truth."
I worked in Public radio for a long time. During that time (91 - 2002) there were many discussions of objectivity and editing. I always came out on the side that said - objectivity doesn't really exist. As soon as you choose to use one person over another, you've made a decision about what you want your piece to say. I've always felt that it's better to be honest about what you are doing and stake claim to the fact that you choose the people, choose the words to use, and how they would be portrayed in your piece. Documentarians almost always have a point of view that they want to present - some do it in a very subtle ways - others bash you over the head.
Milt Lee - Oyate Ta Olwan
rocketboom
Milt Lee - Oyate Ta Olwan
rocketboom
valdez
Active member
Geez,
I didn't even see the flick, I was getting sick of him by then even though I used to love the stuff. but if the guy is not saying anything about actually being anti-war himself, and clip its cut with has a completely other person saying something anti-war than why is that such a misrepresentation? Sounds like a pretty common, if heated, documentary montage, made to deliver MM's own message. Why are people who don't like MM so eager to make his films out as non-documentary?
You can think a documentary sucks, I think a lot of them suck, but to call out thier general legitimacy because they're not objective enough don't look "newsy" or "serious" enough is pretty harsh, I think. The humor injected into that kind of material should be enough of a warning sign to all the angry intilectuals that he's not really intending to put out even-handed, historical documents; he's trying to get people riled up enough that more people go and watch it and think enough about it to go get real information elsewhere on thier own. Obviously it works, at least getting people riled up.
As soon as something is recorded, truth pretty much goes out the window. thats where editorial choices begin. You can't sue someone for being irresponsible and annoying, unless they've actully broken laws in the process. If you could, I'd have a bunch more people locked up too.
I didn't even see the flick, I was getting sick of him by then even though I used to love the stuff. but if the guy is not saying anything about actually being anti-war himself, and clip its cut with has a completely other person saying something anti-war than why is that such a misrepresentation? Sounds like a pretty common, if heated, documentary montage, made to deliver MM's own message. Why are people who don't like MM so eager to make his films out as non-documentary?
You can think a documentary sucks, I think a lot of them suck, but to call out thier general legitimacy because they're not objective enough don't look "newsy" or "serious" enough is pretty harsh, I think. The humor injected into that kind of material should be enough of a warning sign to all the angry intilectuals that he's not really intending to put out even-handed, historical documents; he's trying to get people riled up enough that more people go and watch it and think enough about it to go get real information elsewhere on thier own. Obviously it works, at least getting people riled up.
As soon as something is recorded, truth pretty much goes out the window. thats where editorial choices begin. You can't sue someone for being irresponsible and annoying, unless they've actully broken laws in the process. If you could, I'd have a bunch more people locked up too.