Mic suggestions

depends on the mics but usually the first drop is around 10-15% , after that its just a matter what is the real condition , some models that go out of production and get some mistirias glummer could be worth more then they new , but for most of the good mics the production year is not something that build the price point .
the neumans schoepses , sennheisers are usially acting the same , you can buy 1 year mic that cost new 1200 for 1000$ and you can buy 10 years mic for 950 .
 
mixers seem to have higher resale, but im judging that entirely on Ebay stuff Ive seen. In South Africa there isnt much of a second hand market...
 
powerdog said:
Vidled, you're right. Like asking "Who should I vote for?"

Anyway, I can trace them back if I must, but just this morning I found a comment on another forum expressing strong dislike for the sound of the 416. And another who thought the CS-1 wasn't good (don't remember why.) Those comments surprised me.

Back to thinking, you buy an expensive mic, you hate it, you sell it for close to what you paid. I bet if you price a like-new CMIT or CS3 at $30 below retail it would sell same day.
Click to expand...

Dave Fisk and I had a debate about the 416 and CS1... Dave said the 416 was NOT a warm sounding mic... that it sounded "brittle" and that the CS1 WAS a warmer sounding mic then the 416.

This prompted some serious disagreement from me and we argued back and forth a bit. In my opinion the 416 is a VERY warm sounding mic... not too warm but way warmer then most shotguns (I think it firmly belongs in the "warm" class of the mkh60 and CS3e)... and actually I think the CS1 is anything but warm... in my opinion the CS1 is a stong improvement on the me66... smoother pattern and frequency response, but just as anemic in the lower frequencies. The CS1 is touted as a "do it all" mic that can be a shotgun outdoors and work like a hyper indoors... but the elimination of a rear tail has been achieved at the expense of natural sound in the low end. So in MY opinion, the 4073a is a much better gun then the CS1 is... and I think the CS1, in trying to be an affordable alternative to a good hyper and a good shotgun, built into one mic, ends up being neither.

Shotguns "want" to be omni in the bass frequencies... so when Sanken engineered a near zero-tail mic with the CS3e... and still produced a shotgun which sounds so natural and FULL... I think that was a huge achievement and that's why I say that's a great mic... but the CS1 is ALMOST to the CS3e as the me66 is to the 416. I am no expert in this regard, but it's my opinion that Sanken got the lack of tail on the CS1 by rolling off bass dramatically... since it's the bass that causes the tail on guns mostly anyway. If you listen to a CS1 and think it sounds full, without any post work... then you and I have a different species of the human ear... and I feel that if you do NOT think the 416 sounds warm then you're listening to the wrong mic.

Where the opinions on various high-end mics come from is that a $1K+ single mic is a big deal to anybody... it's a big expense... you hold this little pipe in your hand and think $XXXX wow. So I don't blame anybody for being opinionated about that $XXXX purchase... and honestly aside from the above discussion from Dave and I... I don't think anybody would hate any $1,XXX mic. Even though I like the operation and results yielded by the CS3e, I like the sound of the mkh60 better... but that's just one guy's opinion and frankly, I'd be jumping with joy with EITHER mic. It just depends on what goes through your head when you hold that $1,XXX pipe... what you decide is important to YOU and how YOU rationalize the cost of that thing.

I think this is why (for some) there's a funny feeling about the Schoeps CMIT, even though I'm sure it's a great microphone. There are several good choices at the top end there... and for years Schoeps sold mk41's with the argument that shotguns are inherrently bad sounding and flawed... and that the shotgun design is simply a configuration that "can't work" for truly good sound. For anybody that bought a $1500 pipe (CS3e, MKH60, 81)... that's been getting great sound... it's a little annoying that Schoeps now comes along with a gun that's no better then a CS3e, yet they claim that it's changing the world of shotguns.

Other then that little bit I don't think there's any real dissention in the high end mics...
 
the microphones have proximity effect which greatly impact on the wormess of its sound and over boost the low end , so the 416 and all the others ( exept sankens) will change it characteristic drastically be placed 1 feet or 3 feet from the source .
when you check what exactly you like- change the mic position to see what does it worth .you might find that me 66 sound quit good from 30 cm in front of your mouth and will sounds like toilet pipe when it moves a little .
 
Quote: After much reading of this and other boards, here's my summary. Pick almost any high end mic and you'll find a knowledgeable person who:

Likes it for a particular purpose.
Hates it for same.
Loves the sound of it.
Hates the sound.
Suggests spending less.
Says it's worth the money.
Says it wil give you better sound.
Says it's useless to upgrade unless you've got X amount of experience

Quote :I've bought and sold microphones like people buy shoes, socks, or hookers.
At the end of the day, while I've gone to the top, to the bottom, and everything in between I've learned just one rule of audio that makes me happy with what I have got now...
Pure and simple, use what works best for you. It's not a tough concept to grasp, but just use what works best for you.
-Jeremy

The two quotes above are really great posts (diiferent reasons) for anyone new to this field of work. Other comments have been really helpful too.

As a complete beginner i would just like to say to those who, like me, are still trying to go through the selection process to try and read between the lines of what many of these really knowledgable guys are saying.

When you reach a high level of......knowlege.....skill......experience etc in any particular field you will have preferences, likes and dislikes. Out of it all you will have equipment that as Jeremy says "works best for you" Others may regard some of your equipment as having weakneses or suggest superior alternatives, but because of your experience you work round any weakneses and you bring out the best in what you have. Now i could'nt bring out the best in anyones equipment simply because i have yet to gain the knowledge and experience. So to all the newbies like me you have to start somewhere!

Whatever you choose is unlikley to be regarded by all as "the best" but if you read the various posts you will be unlikely to select any of the "rubbish" that no doubt lies in various shops waiting for the mugs to jump in and buy.

We are here for different reasons so our selected equipment might vary. Those wanting to make a career out of it might well be constrained by a lack of finance, others might be wealthy enough to buy top of the line equipment.

I was fortunate to reach high levels of skill/experience in a particular sport (angling) yet if someone was to ask me for advice in purchasing items i would simply say buy items that represent good value for money but don't spend too much until you know you are going to stick at it. These guys on this forum represent "your protection" from the sales PR and hard sell that you might otherwsie be tempted to listen to prior to purchase. As an example if say you purchased the MKH 4073a or 416 as being suggested many many times. Whatever the outcome you can be assured that because you have purchased a mic that many here regard as great in their repective price class, you can easily sell it at an equally great second hand price!. On the other hand if you went to some of the less scrupulous audio shops you might end up spending the same money on a mic that is crap AND when you go to sell it you can't even get half your money back because no one regards it as a great mic for what it does and costs!

To ask for a suggestion on a mic or perhaps other equipment BEFORE you have read a reasonable portion of the various posts or at least purchased one decent reference book on audio for digital video is doing yourself no favours and perhaps wasting the efforts of these talanted people on trying to answer what seems like the impossible.

I mention this purely for beginners like me and not the original post person:)

Maybe it would be helpful if we had a sticky that you automatically get forwarded to when you first join the forum. The stickie could "suggest" that you read up on some of the posts in whatever section you are interested in and a brief explanation of what a "sticky" is would help (it was new to me). Also perhaps a suggestion that you also read up on various books with a list of book references rated by the forum people as their top ten if you like. A poll could be carried out asking everone to vote on what they regard as the best reference book etc updated every two years to allow for changes etc. That way maybe us newcomers could at least be guided to areas where we can gain some really good knowledge without wasting our money on unsuitable books equipment etc. Just a thought......


Thinking about what some of you have said with regard the same old questions keep popping up time and time again:furious3: What mic?

Although i still think the same questions will probably still get asked, the above suggestion might at least make others "think before asking" something that is frequently impossible to answer with the available information supplied or lack of knowledge from the person asking the question.

It can be a tiresome and time consuming task going through many of the posts on this forum to gain knowledge, but if you are interested enough you will enjoy the newfound info, the sometimes funny sarcastic remarks that are so masterfully put (Oleg) and others like Matt and Jeremy who just love everything audio. Thanks:)
Michael
 
Technically we do have a New to Audio - Read This First thread... I know because I wrote it a couple of months ago... It just never became a sticky. It has links to threads that I personally consider to be ideal for people to read to learn more about audio and to get a better grasp on the concepts that are discussed in this channel.

-Jeremy
 
High end mics

High end mics

Wow.......... The discussion by Matt and Oleg with regards the 416 and others is brilliant. You know what, this whole thread from start to finish is for me the most enlightening of all the posts i have read on audio!!!

The information for those wanting to purchase a top quality mic that is warm sounding is several steps easier by these posts Well done

Eh.......just the differences between the two mics in terms of robustness and a few other pointers would be greatly appreciated.

I know most regard the 416 as built like a tank in so many ways. Well could we get some idea of the differences between the Sanken CS-3e in other areas. I gather the sanken could be weak on high humidity but what about other weakneses. Like if it was fitted out with a full zeppelin how would it be disadvantaged in any way compared to the 416. I noticed the different sound coming from the 416 when it was at varying distances from the mic and the different volume levels. I have not heard the sanken at different distances. If Oleg says the sound stays the same (within reason) how does it compare to the drop off in sound volume level compared to the 416 say from one feet to two feet etc?


I have a fishing video to do next year and i am trying to evaluate the many aspects of the various mics. I appreciate any information on comparing these two mics as they are the two (so far) that i have selected as a possible purchase. I am just worried that having never used any mic other than what has been on the end of an xm2 (gl2) so really dont know how to treat them?how delicate are they?

I would also love to know which wireless lavs sound similar to either of these mics in terms of trying to do ADR with maybe just a few words to sync.

I have so much to learn but cant afford to make a mistake on purchases. Thank you for any information at all you can tell me.

Michael
 
Michael,

You ask and bring up a couple of different questions there.

First, let's talk about the CS3e. Great microphone and a very cheap rental unit (I can get them for $45/day). As Matt stated, this mic has no tail. At the same time though, this microphone really doesn't do well in any humid location. The internals just shut down. Now even in a full blimp rig humidity can build up. Something to keep in mind, but in general the MKH416 is a top performer in any location.

As I have posted in other threads, originally I hated the 416. I remember writing Matt and bitching about how tight the pattern was and how my sound had actually gone downhill once I upgraded to this mic. Furthermore I tend to lean more to the Matt camp regarding the sound characteristic of this mic. I really believe it is one of the most neutral sounding tools available, yet I also think it has that warmer low tone that really makes things sound perfect and realistic.

Now, for a fishing video... I would go a completely different route for a couple of reasons:
1. Water
2. Humidity
3. Potential for damage to gear
4. Looseness of pattern.

I think in this situation you are not going to want a pattern so tight that everything comes out sounding unbalanced. In this situation I would almost certainly turn to something along the lines of a AT4073a or even a step down like a Rode NTG. The reach as well as the audio quality are not in the league of the other tools that are mentioned, but at the same time, there is nothing that scares me more than audio/video gear and water. Just a bad combination.

Now onto the next issue. ADR is for post. While a lav will work great, I normally put up some foam to better insulate my room and use an Oktava for my ADR work on a boomstand with the talent seated on my sofa, the mic running into a studio mixer and the mixer out to a laptop. This works great for narration as well as overall BUDGET (ie: cheap) post production audio aquisition.

There are a lot of higher tech (ie: more expensive) options available, but this works great for me.

Regarding the wireless lavs, each unit has it's own sound characteristic, but it is really not hard to play with EQ to balance out the wireless to your wired. I really do believe that the first rule of wireless audio is that:

*My wire will always sound better than your wireless*

I turn to wireless only when there is no other solution for me getting the best possible sound (OK, that is a lie, sometimes I do it because I'm lazy).

I hope this sort of answers your questions and points you in a decent dirrection moving forward, but I'm sure the big boys will chime in any moment to help out.

-Jeremy
 
didnt use it in the snow , but certainly didnt have any problems during the rainy season or in regullar high humidity days when it was inside the zep outside .the schoepses other hand is a very sad story, at least for me
 
In normal situations you should be fine, but you're looking at a very tight pattern on that mic. For absolute pro users that's a huge selling point. For non pro users (such as myself) it isn't a benefit at all. I personally don't like using a microphone with a tighter pattern than the 416 and that took me a long time to get used to and to appreciate.

-Jeremy
 
QUOTE: Technically we do have a New to Audio - Read This First thread... I know because I wrote it a couple of months ago... It just never became a sticky. It has links to threads that I personally consider to be ideal for people to read to learn more about audio and to get a better grasp on the concepts that are discussed in this channel.

-Jeremy

Thanks Jeremy i have read your "new to audio" read this first. I think it ought to be a sticky most definite. However i think some other stuff should be added to it. I hope i can say this as a beginner but most people don't like to expose their lack of knowledge. Even after reading all your posts i was still left wondering what mic? Why... well perhaps like many people out there i have never handled a seperate mic from the camera and we just dont' know the other major key points like what has been discussed between oleg and Matt.
For some of us hiring equipment is not a practical proposition because we will be doing something over a great many hours so we must know as much as possible to see just how far and wide can make our initial selection stretch to.


You have brought an amazing insight to much of the selection process and the various problems associated with the equipment. i thank you for being so freely helpful to others. You have already saved me a lot of wasted money.

As i say i am just taking the new found knowledge in, but on the subject of my fishing video i have un-realistic hope that it will be something special. I hope to be using the new red camera if i can put enough hours in to save and sacrifice etc . I have not tied down any equipement at all yet! but i do know that water and camera dont mix as my XM2 went visiting loch lomond on its own last year (long story):(


I listened to the various mics and i just loved the sound of the MKH 416 it sounded warm and friendly. I thought the 4073a did not sound as good when used inside. I hoped to utilise the selected shotgun for a specific purpose inside as well, hence my leaning towards the 416. Yes i looked at the polar response and the 416 was more directional which worried me. i was also worried about the lack of rear axis rejection from almost all the shotguns except the sanken CS-3e. On hearing Oleg mention the sanken sounding the same from a different difference had me leaning more twards this mic. I will not be doing any booms with actors sort of thing so the directional part is not as much of a worry. But now you got me seriously worried about the effect a tight pattern has in the overall sound ambience bearing in mind is very important on a fishing video (i think?) Thats the thing about the polar response it shows that sound is rejected from the sides but i recently purchased Jay Rose's book (both) on sound and he sort of says that sound is still heard from the sides just not as loud. You see the problem us beginners have, unless we try it how do we know how much sound is rejected? Is there enough ambience to enrich the video. Can you get ambience sounds out on a river or loch with one of the two mentioned mics? or maybe i should look for a quality hyper for outside but i need the warm sounding mic.

Waves (splashing) is almost a certainty at some point in time so i needed to know how resilient was the sanken. Oleg seems to suggest it will be ok in the zeppelin.

I was going to keep my suggestions on the actual fishing video to when i had gained more knowledge. Since you mention it and thanks for doing so (Jeremy) i reckon that a wireless lav will be required in most dialogue situations as the person being filmed will be either in a seperate boat fishing a large loch or wading in a river.

So i need the sanken CS-3e or the mkh 416 to do several jobs.

I hope to also use the shotgun with the lavs as back up. Close up i can boom the two anglers on a boat with the shotgun. In trying to keep the sound quality high i thought if i could repeat the few words that are probably said during the playing of a fish with the shotgun whilst still out on the loch i could simply do a ADR in post. i say simply but i dont have a clue how hard (still to learn that part). This would allow me to keep the sound quality good. I could also do that on the river if i cannot use the boom pole and shotgun. I want the ambience to be rich and warm sounding also so would use the shotgun mic for that as well. I would not need to mix the ambience and shotgun speech since the ambience would already be there as it would be repeated outside with same ambience sounds.

For the voice over i dont know yet if i can use the same shotgun or a hyper. I would imagine the voice over sound has to be different from the speech in the video. Would the sanken inside sound different enough and suitable for voice over as well? The room to be used is 15ft by 13ft solid walls carpeted etc and i might make some modifications if it gives off reverbs. I am into home cinema and i like the sound of the various rooms in my house with little vibrations but audio editing is an entirely different ball game?

I was really just trying to tie down the first mic and go from there. Still un-decided mind you. Hiring any equipment is out of the question as the video will take at least a year to complete maybe two years! Probably aother year to edit it all:(

Thanks for all your help though :) Michael
 
sorry that strictly in camera section only , we lead the deaf and mentally wounded only in this forum :-)
 
Mike...

Just so I understand completely... You're going to be having this microphone camera mounted, outside, while filming by a river. Is that correct? Mostly what you're looking for is to capture that ambient recording and just the sound of what is going on... Is this right?

-Jeremy
 
QUOTE from Oleg: sorry that strictly in camera section only , we lead the deaf and mentally wounded only in this forum :-)

Well how about leading the deaf and dumb:(

What effect does the tight narrow pattern on the mkh 416 or the sanken CS-3e have on the rest of the video with regard to DYNAMICS Like i appreciate it will give great sound close up and great dynamics close up but what about the rest of the area that has been reduced sound volume wise. Does the narrowness of the pick up also reduce the dynamics of the wider area thereby suppressing the ambience sounds?


PS: Good idea about PM I might just do that soon yes maybe our combined lack of knoweldge will lead us to the not so deaf and dumb:dankk2:

Not being a footie fan but ........well it is Brazil so time for a wee break

Cheers Michael
 
Quote: Just so I understand completely... You're going to be having this microphone camera mounted, outside, while filming by a river. Is that correct? Mostly what you're looking for is to capture that ambient recording and just the sound of what is going on... Is this right?

-Jeremy
__________________

No Jeremy not at all. What i hope to do is have a wireless lav as the first mic. This would be done just to capture the spoken voice close up. Most of the times it would be impractical to boom.

Was hoping then to also use the shotgun as a second mic to capture the same footage if it is dynamic enough to give a good warm sounding richness to the overall sound AND if a fish is hooked i could possibly get the better sound from the shotgun even if it is not always close up. Any other sound from wildlife going by with the shotgun would be better than a lav.

Then afterwards like after that scene!! I would get up close and get the angler to exactly repeat the words he said (only be a few) into the shotgun much closer and then later on in post do a ADR with the spoken words to add to the original scene. The lavs are only used as a stand by in case it does not work. The shotgun would be used on a boom but the boom would be limited in its use wide so would just be kept out of picture wide or close (if you know what i mean)

What do you think Jermey. and thank you so much Michael
 
Michael,

In this situation I would actually suggest a looser pattern than the 416 and above offer. Even coming in for close ups if you're going to be in a camera mounted situation the wider pattern will work better.

For the wireless I would look into a Sennheiser G2 wireless package and either the stock lav or if you want the mic to be hidden then a Countryman B6.

From this point for the camera mounted mic I would go with a MKH416 for that tight pattern, an AT4073a for a little more lattitude of pattern, or even consider one of the hot cheap shotguns like the Rode NTG. From this point get your wind protection, but if you're not going to have a boom person a blimp isn't an option...

Remember, camera mounted isn't ideal, but for this situation, if it was me, I would go for something like the NTG from Rode... and I never suggest that, but for this it is ideal.

Just my opinion.

-Jeremy
 
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