Mic on hotshoe??

R

Rider

Active member
I've read two pieces of advice which at first seem reasonable:

(1) Don't mount the mic on the hotshoe because you want the mic always in the ideal spot 2-5 feet from the sound source.

(2) Don't record with the camera, but use an external recorder.

At first this seemed sensible, but after trying this for a few days, I found it to be a major hassle. For most subjects, I am willing to forego the added audio quality in order to avoid (1) running around and placing a mic in the ideal spot at all times and (2) syncing every scrap of video I ever record with the corresponding audio from my external recorder.
 
Bad picture with be forgiven. Bad sound will destroy your film.

I suspect you're using a fixed stand instead of having a boom op. Unless you're working with unmoving robots, you're not going to achieve ideal placement with a fixed mic stand, and while we're on it, 2-5 feet is NOT ideal. Getting the mic half as far from the source gives a 4-fold increase in level. This works both ways, so pulling that mic back from 2 to 4 feet, is costing you a 4-fold drop in level.

Sync is NOT a big deal, provided you properly slate your takes. Its even easier if you also bring in the scratch audio from the camera and use something like Plural eyes to line up the good audio from your recorder.
 
If 2-5 feet from the source is not ideal, what is the best range (does it depend on type of source and type of mic)?

JordanBlock said:
Bad picture with be forgiven. Bad sound will destroy your film.

I suspect you're using a fixed stand instead of having a boom op. Unless you're working with unmoving robots, you're not going to achieve ideal placement with a fixed mic stand, and while we're on it, 2-5 feet is NOT ideal. Getting the mic half as far from the source gives a 4-fold increase in level. This works both ways, so pulling that mic back from 2 to 4 feet, is costing you a 4-fold drop in level.

Sync is NOT a big deal, provided you properly slate your takes. Its even easier if you also bring in the scratch audio from the camera and use something like Plural eyes to line up the good audio from your recorder.
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Rider said:
If 2-5 feet from the source is not ideal, what is the best range (does it depend on type of source and type of mic)?
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For the typical shotgun, about 22 inches away and kept aimed into a 8 inch diameter circle centred on the subject's throat is about right. For the typical hypercardioid, most often preferred over the shotgun for booming indoors, shorten that distance to about 18 inches. The idea is you want it to be as close as possible without getting so close that the mic's proximity effect starts to kick in or the sound souce subtends a larger angle than the mic's pattern angle.
 
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Rider said:
At first this seemed sensible, but after trying this for a few days, I found it to be a major hassle. For most subjects, I am willing to forego the added audio quality in order to avoid (1) running around and placing a mic in the ideal spot at all times and (2) syncing every scrap of video I ever record with the corresponding audio from my external recorder.
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I felt the same way about picture. It's such a hassle framing and focusing. But then someone pointed out that most people would like to actually see the actors on the screen and not some aimless blur. So taking the time to frame and focus has really improved my films. You might find the same is true for sound.
 
If you have a mixer feeding into a camera you don't need to record separately, unless your camera has consumer audio. And if it's a "major hassle" to make sure the audio is good, then what's the point? Live with bad audio until you desire to do what's necessary to get good audio. It's just physics. The further the mic is from the subject, the worse it sounds. Nobody HAS to work at it. Nobody HAS to have a good sounding film. One can compromise any way they want. It doesn't "seem reasonable" to put the mic in the right place. It IS reasonable. Now that I re-read the OP, I see that you weren't even asking for help. You were just stating that you are going to stop trying to get the mic in the right place. So..... Good luck with that!
 
Chadfish said:
If you have a mixer feeding into a camera you don't need to record separately, unless your camera has consumer audio.
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Don't all of the Nikon and Canon DSLRs and Panasonic/Olympus micro four thirds cameras have "consumer audio"?

Looking at my posting, I think I did sound frustrated. Recording great audio is an art that should not be relegated to photographers. It's just not my art (which will keep you guys in business!) What I basically want, most of the time, is audio that's a step above the in-camera mic, so people don't throw up when they hear it. When I want something better, I'll hire one of you guys, deal? :)

So if I've got a GH2/Nikon D7000/Olympus E-PL1, and want to get audio that's above the "they won't throw up thressholds" and want to achieve it without syncing and without a lot of extra gear to hook up to the camera, do I have a shot?
 
If your DSLR can operate with manual audio levels, there is a chance. The thing with DSLRs that makes for the worst audio is AGC. Auto Gain Compensation. That's a thing that turns up the audio automatically during quiet times. That's OK for home movies, so you can hear everything, or it turns down automatically when something loud happens. BUT that automatic volume adjustment also turns up the room noise, so you have an ever-changing noise floor. Not good at all. Amateur time.. There are solutions! But you have to spend some money. JuicedLink has a mixer that actually defeats AGC. There is a video explaining the process here. http://www.juicedlink.com/audio-preamps-mixers-etc-c-66 More specifically this exact mixer for 419.0: http://www.juicedlink.com/audio-preamps-mixers-etc-c-66/jl-dt454 There is a video on that product page. It's not ideal, because these cameras have wee little 1/8" jacks that aren't designed for good mics, but the mixer can take an XLR cable and supply phantom power to good mics. You will see your levels on the mixer, and be able to turn up/down the levels to ensure you are not distorting the sound from being too loud.

STILL you must get the mic close to the mouth of who's speaking. Otherwise you will hear more room ambiance the further away you get. Like I said, that's just physics. It's better to use a cheap lav placed properly on the chest of an actor, than to use a 2,000.00 mic on a camera 7 feet away. There's no free way out, but with some well focused spending you can get very usable audio. For the work flow you want (no thinking in post) the mixer is the only way.
 
Ok, so

(1) I'll make sure that my camera does not have AGC (I just posted a new thread asking about the GH1 and GH2).

(2) If the camera does have AGC, I'll look for a mixer that defeats it like the Juicedlink.

(3) Otherwise, would a pre-amp like a small Beachtek do the trick?

(4) I'll get the mic as close as possible to the talent. Cheep Lav positioned properly is better than expensive mic not positioned properly.

(5) In a pinch, I can plug the lav or mic right into the camera, if the camera does not have AGC and allows monitoring of audio set levels.

I really like the cheaper mics that don't have XLR. XLR looks too intimidating and then people will laugh when the audio isn't better than their video cams. Is that a wimpy reason to avoid XLR?

If I'm stuck using a stereo mic to record speech, any tips on how to make that work and not be horrible?
 
Since you've cared enough to ask the questions, might I humbly suggest you get the Sound for Film and Television DVD produced by fellow dvxer's. Link http://dvxuser.com/articles/dvxshop/SoundDVD/

Way better than many "film school" courses in sound. Worth every cent.

It's always really hard to spring for decent audio gear, and yes, it often takes a second body to do it properly. Take heart that most good audio gear will hold it's value far longer than your camera. . .
 
1) Read your camera's manual to see if you can turn of AGC, and adjust levels manually.

2) Look for a mixer anyway, and not a Beachtek. Beachtech can't turn up the volume of the mic, only down. Not good. JuicedLink has many different models. Get one with Phantom power and 2 XLR plugs if you do not need to defeat AGC. Either way the 419.00 model has METERS that you can see how loud you are recording - very important. JuicedLink is better than Beachtech is all aspects.

3) Refer to 2).

4) Sure. Not that a cheap mic is a good thing. Just better than a badly placed good mic.

5) No. When you buy a lav you have to specify what it's going to be plugged into - unless you get the Rode Lav, which has different connectors for such occasions. But don't assume that any lav wired for sennheiser will work plugged into your camera. Never assume, always ask. ((((Lav video posted below)))))

6) People will not laugh because you have a mixer with XLR going into your camera. People will laugh when they see a radio-shack mic with an 1/8" cable going into your camera because they know your signal is unbalanced, and you are probably recording a nice loud Hummmmmmmmm that will ruin your sound. Don't be intimidated. Just get real and get some money together.

7)Stereo mics are the worst for recording speech. Dialogue should always be recorded with a mono mic, otherwise you sound like a camcorder. There are no tips for using the wrong mic for the job other than breaking off one of the 2 capsules and making it mono. You need a 'shotgun' for outdoor dialogue, and you heed a 'hypercardioid' for indoor dialogue. Some shotguns will work inside sometimes. Hypercardioids always sound good, but outside they are very susceptible to wind, so you need a blimp or a baby ball gag. If you have no budget for any mics, you get what you get and you don't throw a fit... But trust me on the stereo mic thing. There is no reason to use one ever outside of ambient sounds as a background.

The main thing is testing. Test out your ideas and see how you like it. If you want to not spend any money, then there's nothing anyone can help you with. You have what you have, or can borrow. But I'm giving you the straight poop here. Never make a production decision based on someone laughing that your audio s better than your video. That leads me to think you are in high school. That's completely coming from your mind. Audio is usually MORE expensive than the camera when we're talking about DSLRs. Just remember that audio is 70% of the movie. People will walk out of a flick with bad audio. They have to hear the story, and the story is the main thing. If video looks choppy, it can look sort of artistic, as long as the audio is right they will understand the story and appreciate your images. Maybe you don't want to think about it, but you can get a friend to hold a boom pole right? Being a film maker is about organizing people. So what if the boom pole is a broom handle? You get that effin' mic to the talent - then you're golden. Always have your headphones on too. Never trust that things will turn out right without listening to every take. It's work buddy, but it's even more work when you blew a day of shooting because you cheaped out or ignored physics. Then you have to shoot again, or resign yourself to the fact that your film is now officially amateur, and you will always wish it wasn't. You'll never miss a few hundred dollars you spent on reasonable gear, but you will always be haunted by the mistakes you let happen.

If you are a film maker you ARE an audio guy.

 
If you are a film maker you ARE an audio guy.
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Actually I know a lot of filmmakers who are not "audio guys".
And some who think they are but most definitely are NOT.

If your a one man band you are "the audio guy" even if you are not an "audio guy". So maybe the OP should become at least a passible "audio guy".
 
When recording with stereo mic, why doesn't deleting one channel give you a good mono recording?
 
It does give you a mono recording. But it's not pointing forward so depending on the mic and which channel you toss it's either OK or really bad. Stereo mics also tend to use two cardioid capsules and that is kind of wide for dialog.
So the full answer is it will be mono and is something routinely done in post with FX, but it's a lousy solution for dialog.
 
Yeah my point is that if it's your film, you better know a little about everything that goes on in it, and be able to at least tell if the audio sounds good. In that sense, since it's your art, you are part audio guy. Maybe a bad audio guy, but nonetheless... If you are a DP working on someone else's film, you don't have to be an audio guy. If you are the one making final decisions, you are responsible for everything.

The main thing is to test test test.
 
One other question. You said:

Chadfish said:
your signal is unbalanced, and you are probably recording a nice loud Hummmmmmmmm that will ruin your sound.
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Is the loud hum the result of using an unablanced (1/8") mic or the product of the in-camera recorder?
 
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If you are looking for a cheap mic that is real simple, and only uses an 1/8" cable going straight into the camera, maybe the Rode VideoMic will be about your speed. You can put it in the hot shoe, it's got a built in shock mount, and with a cheap extension cable you can put it on a pole to have it by the actors mouths. This is only if you can defeat the AGC. There is also a getto way to do that without the mixer. You should do it the way I described, but if you have nothing to work with, annd can come up with 150.00 for the VideoMic, you might be in business.

This works on any DSLR: Part 1

Part 2

As Nick Burns, the Company Computer Guy says, "Um by the way..... YOUR WELCOME!"
 
1/8" cables are unbalanced, and suceptible to hum. You can get away without getting hum, but that depends on what's happening around the area you're using it. Don't have your phone on.

Here's another AGC hack video that the first guy mentions. It won't work with the VideoMic, but it will with a lav:

These ways are pretty clunky, but can work. The first guy's way requires soldering a cable, which I and many don't do. But it's a simple soldier, and anyone who soldiers can do it. The guy shows exactly how it's done, so just get the cables, the VideoMic and you're in there. I think the VideoMic could be a decent mic for you to use if you have next to no budget. It runs on battery, and is actually the same capsule as on the NTG-2, the XLR version that also runs on battery or Phantom. The most elegant, and best sounding way is to use the JuicedLink Mixer, and a Rode NTG-2 (or whatever mic you want as long as it's XLR). But the NTG-2 is the best "bang for your buck" mic. Then you could use that set up on real video cameras too, or use the mixer to feed into a recorder if you go that rout. A good mic will always be useful to you, as will a mixer. These are the basics, and perhaps you can get a little help with these at Christmas.
 
If you feed the mixer into the camera, isn't that an unbalanced line that will introduce a hum?

Some cameras (such as the GH2) have a mic in but not a line in. Is that problematic?
 
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Some good points. I personally like to record all of my talent with my M/S mike. Gives me the mono option but also with stereo imaging when they get off axis. This is how the BBC records a lot of their audio.. especially for run and gun reality stuff. It works very well.
 
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