Mic level into Line level input

I'm guessing this has to be battery powered. THe reason is that being battery powered is going to raise the price a bunch. But the cheapest way generally to get four mic pres is to use a mixer that has direct outs. You can use a mixer that only has a stereo out because you are not going to be using the "mixer" functions. The mics go in the trims are usually the only thing that comes before the direct out, so you take the direct out which is now at line level. You would only need a four (mic) channel mixer so generally pretty cheap. Except that few that are set up to run off batteries out of the box are cheap. The old Mackie 1202's can be wired to use an external battery and they will give you four clean mic pres with direct outs.
 
Yes, I had a modded DC powered VLZ 1402, which was... semi-portable, the 1202 is smaller but still not small enough or designed for a shoulder bag set-up. Used SD 442s are relatively common; small, internal and external battery powered, pre amp limiters, direct outs, great sounding, advanced metering, but they typically go for $800 > $1000+.
 
Noiz2 said:
I'm guessing this has to be battery powered. THe reason is that being battery powered is going to raise the price a bunch. But the cheapest way generally to get four mic pres is to use a mixer that has direct outs. You can use a mixer that only has a stereo out because you are not going to be using the "mixer" functions. The mics go in the trims are usually the only thing that comes before the direct out, so you take the direct out which is now at line level. You would only need a four (mic) channel mixer so generally pretty cheap. Except that few that are set up to run off batteries out of the box are cheap. The old Mackie 1202's can be wired to use an external battery and they will give you four clean mic pres with direct outs.
Click to expand...

I don't need 4 channels. The Atomos actually only has a 2 channel line level input, the other two are coming from the camera and already properly amplified. The purpose here is supposed to just be a way to feed an additional input directly to the Atomos in case what the camera is supplying is not sufficient. This is why I started looking into even those single input in-line battery powered amps for iphone mics. I'd probably normally use one only in case I wanted another input not going through the camera, and then if I wanted to use all four inputs, pick up another of those little pre-amps and a stereo splitter (Atomos input is a single stereo jack). Then I decided a dual channel thing like the BeachTek DXA-SLR might just be a more elegant solution, and then realized at that price I'm practically at the level of proper 4-track recorder from the likes of Tascam (and one that is designed to fit on a tripod with a camera).

I'm not sure how this turned into suggestions for $1,000 preams and retrofitting batteries to multitrack mixers! I'm picturing this being useful for event coverage and the idea was to simplify a workflow. If there's no convenient way to add some gain to mics going into the Atomos' line level jack, I might as well buy a DR-60D and call it a day. I'll have to sync in post like I always did- its just a shame because I'm *almost* there using a mic into the Atomos right now.
 
Yikes, why would that be any more great than the iRig PRE?

It looks like the irig but with less amplification and an exponentially higher price tag.

BTW, I took a gander over at the Atomos forums to see what they recommend, and the first response I saw suggested either the DXA-SLR from Beachtek or the iRig PRE. Go figure!
 
Tascam DR-60D has a line output. Yes, it's a recorder too, but I haven't seen anything that does mic to line that's cheap, portable & battery powered.
 
Richard Crowley said:
The Fostex AR501 would be great if it weren't 3-4x beyond the stated budget.
Click to expand...
Richard,

I just saw this post and checked B&H right this moment and they have the Fostex Ar501 for $79. An instant savings of $270. I got one because phantom power alone is worth it at that price.
 
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"Tascam DR-60D has a line output."
Yes, but it's unbalanced -10dBV. Cable runs would be limited to the 'recommended max of 10' and would have anemic levels if feeding 'pro' gear. The preamps ain't all that good either, so why bother.
 
mico said:
Richard,

I just saw this post and checked B&H right this moment and they have the Fostex Ar501 for $79. An instant savings of $270. I got one because phantom power alone is worth it at that price.
Click to expand...

Wow, now THAT's a great price! Still more than an iRig PRE, but I'd imagine this to be a more professional tool so I'm cool with that. Thing is, I'm looking at it and I don't understand how the preamp part works. Is there a gain control knob or something that I can't see?


Rick R said:
"Tascam DR-60D has a line output."
Yes, but it's unbalanced -10dBV. Cable runs would be limited to the 'recommended max of 10' and would have anemic levels if feeding 'pro' gear. The preamps ain't all that good either, so why bother.
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They're very popular field recorders and I've never heard any complaints about the preamps not being "good enough". I've owned other Tascam recorders and always found them to be more than good enough for my use. I mean, I wouldn't use it as a concert mixer, but I'd be comfortable using it attached to the venue's mixer to record a track for me to sync to. As for cable runs, I don't think it would be an issue for the way I'm intending to use this. Are you saying using the 60D as a preamp to a camera's input wouldn't yield audio as usable as its internal recording? Or are ya just being picky? ;)
 
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M. Gilden said:
Are you saying using the 60D as a preamp to a camera's input wouldn't yield audio as usable as its internal recording? Or are ya just being picky? ;)
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As I stated a -10dB feed from the Tascam into a +4 input would yield low levels, which would increase noise. So the camera audio would likely be inferior (which is OK for sync purposes).
The max cable run length for -10dB unbal. is the 'recommended standard' by many equipment manufacturers, actual 'usable' length depends on many variables... including the users expectations and tolerance to low quality. Picky? I get paid to be picky.
OTOH, most 'video' folks don't give a sh_t and/or cant hear the difference anyway. Sorry if I offended anyone...


NOT.
 
Rick R said:
As I stated a -10dB feed from the Tascam into a +4 input would yield low levels, which would increase noise. So the camera audio would likely be inferior (which is OK for sync purposes).
The max cable run length for -10dB unbal. is the 'recommended standard' by many equipment manufacturers, actual 'usable' length depends on many variables... including the users expectations and tolerance to low quality. Picky? I get paid to be picky.
OTOH, most 'video' folks don't give a sh_t and/or cant hear the difference anyway. Sorry if I offended anyone...


NOT.
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ROFL- If I were afraid of being offended, I wouldn't be asking dumb questions in the audio section!
What you may be missing here is that it doesn't matter if "most 'video' folks don't give a sh_t", but rather if the people HIRING them or intended audience do or don't.

I complain to my buddies about awful video footage I'm asked to work with all the time. But, the things that bother me aren't noticed by the average viewer or even producer. As long as it looks good to them, who am I to demand a reshoot? For mission-critical audio I'd hire someone who is pickier than me to handle it with his own equipment. This is an experiment to see how far I can push it when I'm one-man-banding.
 
I think it depends a bit on where you are how oblivious video people are to sound. I noticed a bit more awareness on the west coast than I do in Michigan. Though awareness didn't always translate to giving a s_it.

I have had some shockingly bad production come my way. Sometimes it's the recordist and sometimes it's the director/ producer. I've had multi tracks come in where all were close to useless. And that was from a decent recordist but with a director who wouldn't let a mic anywhere close to talent. And I got tracks from a clueless recordist that thought using a shotgun from 150 feet would be fine.

What sometimes doesn't get through in these types of threads is that quality is almost always on a sliding scale. So running a -10 line signal over 10 feet is not recommended but it is also not going to trash your signal at 11 feet or be fantastic at 3 feet. Under good conditions you could probably go 100 feet and still get a decent signal with relatively low noise. The catch is "under good conditions". Unbalanced cables are much more prone to picking up stray RF, and a -10 signal is a LOT lower than a +4 signal. That combo makes it a lot more likely that you will have problems with longer runs. But it's still a line level. 100 foot mic runs are not that unusual and being balanced does not really make up for the fact that the signal is minuscule compared to even a -10 line level.

To your topic, personally I would get a preamp over the recorder, because of flexibility. On the other hand if you are going to get a cheap preamp then it's kind of a toss up. Cheap preamps used to be awful but with the new designs all but the lowest consumer junk are pretty good, at least for production dialog.

That said my #1 inexpensive choice would be a used MixPre which you might be able to pick up under $300 these days. The reason is that it will last a lifetime and make just about any "cheap" recorder sound decent.

For recorders? Tascam would be my first choice in the bargain department. I would lean toward the DR-70 over the DR-60 because of the shape. The DR-60 is an awkward shape that makes it not great for using in a bag or on a table and it's not particularly stable mounted under a camera. The 70 is a better formal and works well in a bag or on a table and supposedly is a lot more stable mounted under a camera.

But? They should be about the same is sound quality, though the 70 probably is a shade better. The 70 has some issue with going to some cameras so you may need to get a special cable.

I'm exploring shooting so in some ways we are in the same boat, I'm just coming at it from the sound side. Right now for my experiments I'm not setting the sound bar very high because I'm busy learning the camera and really doing it as a OMB. But I am certainly aware of the issues and can fairly easily up that game. But I would be doing that with a second person doing sound. I can set things up so I'm getting "good enough" for my learning experiments but I also have come to understand on a more practical way that one really can not focus on both sound and image at the same time. One is going to suffer. For most doc's the thing is the shot and the moment and as long as the sound is understandable or "fixable" that is generally as good as it needs to be if that is the only way you can get THAT shot. As a post person that realization is kind of hateful since I kind of understand why some stuff comes in needing triage.

For any planned shoot though there is really no good excuse to not shooting decent dialog.
 
^ This guy gets me.

Looks like the price on the Tascam recorders went back up, guess it was just a new year's special or something that I had quoted earlier. But I agree with you that the preamp might be more useful in the long run. I'd still like to keep it under mixpre prices - you must understand, no one has ever complained about my sound quality, and one recent client actually complimented it despite being one of the least likely setups I've ever attempted (long story, but there was a lot of wireless involved). So I can't justify the cost for my clients if they are happy with what I'm using - this is just me wanting to tinker and experiment. That's why I'm keeping it on the lower end.
 
WEll here the dr-70 is only about $50 more than the DR-60Mk2
http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/141799887206?ul_noapp=true&chn=ps&lpid=82

But $250 may be more than you want to spend.

And I did a quick eBay search and wow the old MixPre's are going for around $600, which is almost what I paid for mine new many years ago! Now that was a sound investment, so to speak.
I was sure I had seen some in the $300 range once but?

You could, if the form factor can work for you, use a DR-40. Those are pretty low priced and have a lot of extra uses like SFX gathering, or as a plant recorder.

It's not what I would want to use a lot with a camera because I find the form factor a problem except as a handy SFX recorder.
 
Noiz2 said:
WEll here the dr-70 is only about $50 more than the DR-60Mk2
http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/141799887206?ul_noapp=true&chn=ps&lpid=82

But $250 may be more than you want to spend.
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I saw the DR-60D for around $150 used a couple of weeks ago. That's why I had said, does it make sense to spend $150 on a beachtek preamp when a pretty decent recorder is around the same amount of money? But I think you are right about the pre-amp being more useful in the long run.

And I did a quick eBay search and wow the old MixPre's are going for around $600, which is almost what I paid for mine new many years ago! Now that was a sound investment, so to speak.
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ZING!
You could, if the form factor can work for you, use a DR-40. Those are pretty low priced and have a lot of extra uses like SFX gathering, or as a plant recorder.

It's not what I would want to use a lot with a camera because I find the form factor a problem except as a handy SFX recorder.
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I've already got a Zoom H4N for that kind of form factor stuff, and a Tascam DR-07 for even smaller setups or when I don't need XLR. I've never used a 60D or 70D, but I get the impression that along with having knobs for more direct control over individual levels, they might be better designed for use as a preamp to a camera as well as a recorder? I've seen they offer camera output jacks, which I'd assume to be higher quality than using using the headphones or monitor out jack of a recorder. Maybe I don't know what I'm talking about, but I guess I'm thinking these devices can sort of act as both a preamp and recorder if needed as well?
Ultimately, I'm finding that a lot of my recent clients (as well as my own quick jobs) don't benefit enough from dual system sound to go through it on every shoot, so I really like the idea of recording directly into the camera and/or Atomos Ninja, which is really how this whole discussion got started.

I'm still sort of feeling like I don't know what I want to spend money on at the moment, and wondering if perhaps I should invest more in some other gear for now and revisit this when I've more information. The more I research, the more I realize I don't know.
 
I own a Tascam DR-60D myself, it is such crazy good value it really is almost impossible to pass up. (and the mk2 is only a tiny bit more to get)
I've also used the DR-70D as the mixer on a feature film, but dunno if the extra cost is really worth it for bag use if you don't need the extra XLR input. Don't like how the screen angles away from you. But if you're a one person crew and going to use it under your camera, then perhaps you might prefer the DR-70D over the DR-60D mk2.

Sound Devices 302 is a nice choice too, but I'd reckon more suitable for the starting out semi pro sound mixer to add to his bag, than for a one man crew video guy for his rig.

iRig Pre is interesting too, I've got a couple. But requires a little bit of a DIY attitude as well.
http://www.dslrfilmnoob.com/2012/11/25/irig-pre-hack-cheap-xlr-phantom-power-preamp-dslr/

Also, if a person didn't have an Atomos and was starting from scratch I'd absolutely suggest to go this way instead:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1137279-REG/video_devices_pix_e5_5_4k_recording.html (or PIX-E7 if you want a bigger screen, but I'd prefer to keep the rig more compact and 5 inches is plenty! "Is what she said...")

With the Video Devices PIX-LR:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1140405-REG/video_devices_pix_lr_xlr_audio_interface_for.html

My hope at some point later this year is to buy a 2ndhand Sony A7s together with a PIX-E5 & PIX-LR, it would make for an *AMAZING* B cam to my current Sony PMW-F3! :-D
 
IronFilm said:
I own a Tascam DR-60D myself, it is such crazy good value it really is almost impossible to pass up. (and the mk2 is only a tiny bit more to get)
I've also used the DR-70D as the mixer on a feature film, but dunno if the extra cost is really worth it for bag use if you don't need the extra XLR input. Don't like how the screen angles away from you. But if you're a one person crew and going to use it under your camera, then perhaps you might prefer the DR-70D over the DR-60D mk2.

Sound Devices 302 is a nice choice too, but I'd reckon more suitable for the starting out semi pro sound mixer to add to his bag, than for a one man crew video guy for his rig.

iRig Pre is interesting too, I've got a couple. But requires a little bit of a DIY attitude as well.
http://www.dslrfilmnoob.com/2012/11/25/irig-pre-hack-cheap-xlr-phantom-power-preamp-dslr/

Also, if a person didn't have an Atomos and was starting from scratch I'd absolutely suggest to go this way instead:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1137279-REG/video_devices_pix_e5_5_4k_recording.html (or PIX-E7 if you want a bigger screen, but I'd prefer to keep the rig more compact and 5 inches is plenty! "Is what she said...")

With the Video Devices PIX-LR:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1140405-REG/video_devices_pix_lr_xlr_audio_interface_for.html

My hope at some point later this year is to buy a 2ndhand Sony A7s together with a PIX-E5 & PIX-LR, it would make for an *AMAZING* B cam to my current Sony PMW-F3! :-D
Click to expand...

Good info in here! And thanks for being the only other person on this forum so far to acknowledge how much of a value the iRig could be!

I think for now I'm going to hold off on this. I ended up using my G2 wireless lav system to feed into the Atomos input directly, which has enough gain to work pretty well without any additional preamps. Other audio sources went into the camera. Pretty clean and simple setup, and the resulting footage off the Atomos' HD has all audio sources already synced up in 4 possible tracks (2 from camera's HDMI, 2 from atomos input- although I only used one channel for the lav). Pretty great for a fast workflow if you need to get editing ASAP, I think this will come in very handy!
 
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