Mic/audio kit for HVX200

M

Mike@AF

Veteran
I should be receiving my HVX200 in the next two days and I want to order some good audio recording equipment. Seems the Audio Technica 4073a is the best choice for the money. i want to be able to use it as a boom mic and as a camera mount mic for different situations. What do I need for this?

I notice Panasonic shows their shotgun mic attached to the HVX in the brochure. Does the camera come with a mount for this and if so will it work with the AT 4073a? It doesn't look like a shock mount for the camera, so is there one available and is it necessary?

Which shock mount and zeppelin/blimp should I go with for boom situations? Which softie for camera mount situations? Which fishpole?

Thanks for the help.
 
Mike, without meaning to sound rude, did you do a search in the archives yet? Forget that it is the HVX versus the DVX, the answers are the same (including the concept of a camera-mounted mic....)

Phil
 
Yes read down thru the forum..most of your questions has already been asked. PS look at the sticky above for mike camparisons..IE you don't have to spend hundreds for a mike that is clean. I use a Oktavia Mk012 hypercardoid and it is very clean is very inexpensive compared to the 4073a. It is perfect for a indoor mike. But you will need a good boom and operator to really hear the diff.
 
I've read the threads, and there's so much info here (and some is conflicting) that I'm a bit overwhelmed and now I'm confused. Sorry for my lack of detailed questions, I should give more info....

I will be shooting an ultra-low budget feature this summer. I'm buying all the equipment so I can make sure I have it when I need it and the length of renting could outprice buying outright. There will be indoor and outdoor scenes, and short scenes inside cars (usually not moving). Camera support is a tripod or Glidecam at almost all times. I was planning on recording straight to the camera and recording to P2 cards (maybe a Firestore, but probably P2). I haven't really set a budget, but I'm comfortable at around $1000. I may be willing to spend more than that if the extra bang is worth the extra money.

You may be wondering why I want a mic to attach to the camera. I plan on using the camera to record auditions and rehearsals, as well as casual use.

Things I'm confused about for my situation:

-Do I really need 2 mics, one for indoor and one for outdoor?
-Are shock mounts and zeppelins/blimps/softies made for specific mics or are they universal?
-Will I be recording in stereo or mono? I'm thinking mono since it's dialogue.
-There will be a scene near a street and cars may drive by. Will the microphone I use have an effect on that background noise?

The "New To Audio?" thread was helpful, but I wonder if it's designed for lower-budget (I know I said ultra-low for my budget) than I'm looking for. I've read recommendations for mics that cost $1500, yet that thread is recommending a $500 mic in the best package, which also includes a $300 mic. I'm fine with that suggestion, but is it the right choice for my situation?

It seems this is all subjective, but I don't have experience with these items to be confident with my decision. How do I go about picking one that is going to give me the best performance within my budget with quality that could rival a mid- to large-budget feature? At least something you'd see (hear) at Sundance or Cannes, or even better.
 
ok - you need separate recording if you intend run Steadicam - it would be out of balance with cables .
you need good mixer if you intend work with more then 1 mic or be able record even one mic properly .
you will need more then 1 mic for different locations , there is no perfect mic for all- exactly like there is no one lens you shoot your film .
you need wind protection as the same you need lights .
no mic will eliminate close road rumble , some will do better then the others.
the acoustics and noise are different on different locations , try to choose better ones if you have microphone limitation .
for normal work you will need at least 4-5 k to invest run low budget , less then that you just lying to your self that you can handle every situation ( i have 60k rig and i cant handle every situation, but i can handle the majority of normal shooting ).
welcome to the real world - the camera is the only small part of your audio setup .
of course you can run 1 mic and do adr later - for that you dont need the mic at all - you have build in one .
dont forget even you buy al the mics you still need the person who know how to deal with sound -and its much difficult then point and push the button on your camera .
check first with soundman after you will have location scouting and part of the shooting brake down what exactly you need
until then all of your questions are boba maises :-)
 
Mike,

First, for auditions and rehearsals, just use the internal mic. It's good enough for what you're looking for.

Second, I have a concern. You've asked for our advice, and then you question the advice we have given. For example, yes you need two mics (honestly you probably need 5-6 if you really want to do it right. I currently have 4 - two shotgun, two hyper plus all of my lavalieres).

Finally, you have just spent at least $5k for your camera (not including your P2 cards) so why do you believe that you can get good audio for less than that. I just sat through a session with two film distributors last weekend, and they both said the same thing -- sound quality in a project is equally important to image quality in their decision whether to pick up a film or not.

So, if you're not willing to truly make the investment, then either hire a sound person that has made the investment and can get you good to great audio, or make hobby films. Sound is an investment, in time, education and equipment. You could buy the best mics in the world, and still get terrible sound. There are guys in this group that could get better sound with a crappy mic than most people can get by just going out and buying a $1000 mic but not investing in the training on how to use it (and this training investment isn't money, it's working with people that know what they're doing and learning from them. You will learn more boom-oping for a good mixer than just going out and doing it on your own. There are mixers out there (guys like Jeff Wexler) that I would come close to giving up body parts just to pull cable for.)

Phil
 
It is not that I am questioning the advice. I know you are all professionals here who know what you're talking about, and that is why I am here asking for help. I am just confused about the advice.

Sound is 50% of the movie. So I don't want to cut corners, but I don't want to go overboard on this ultra-low budget movie either.

What I am confused about is why a $500 mic and $300 mic combo is recommended over a $1500 mic. Is the $500 mic better or that close to the quality of the $1500 mic?

I now understand the benefits of having two mics and I know a $10K mic would blow away a $500 or $1500 mic. You get what you pay for, I believe that. The question is where should I draw the line?

What I've figured out so far is:

Audio Technica AT4073A
Oktava MK012
Rycote Windscreen #4
Rycote Windjammer #4
K-Tec K-SSM Shockmount
Gitzo Carbon Fiber Fishpole
Less than $1600 for the entire package.

Is this a good package for an ultra-low budget independent feature? Is there anything I can change and keep the same price that would be better? Is there anything that I can spend a little more and get a lot better quality?

As far as the mixer and separate recorder, I am researching that right now. I will wait and see how difficult it is to manage the Glidecam without a separate recording system. I won't be surprised if it doesn't work right and I need to get those.

Thanks to all for the advice.
 
Since you are using the packages from the thread I posted I will chime in... Very simply, yes, that is an inexpensive kit that will provide you with solid sound. Now if you had read that thread closely you will notice that I provide upgrades to the options I provided including recommending that the more serious you get the more you look into an external recorder and a mixer. Will a $1500 kit give you good sound? Yes. It will be a very good package. I have used the $300 kit on there for commercial shoots that air on television. Furthermore, if you are determined to believe that sound is 50% of the project, trust me, I can make a $10,000 kit for you, but for someone with experience using it you won't notice the difference or have the technique to get the benefits. If you want my advice, record your auditions using the on camera mic and hire someone to do the sound for you. That is the best solution for everything that you are looking to do. Depending how long your shoot is you can easily get a sound person for the $1500-$4000 range. If you believe in your project enough to make the film, then believe in it enough to hire a pro. The difference is massive.

If you doubt my suggestion about hiring someone, see how many people chime in to disagree with me...

-Jeremy
 
I do have some experience with sound, but it is limited. I was a sound recorder on projects in film school and have done some sound mixing. Since I'm not totally inexperienced I think we can do well with the kit and recording ourselves.

I have time to experiment and since some of the shoot will be spread out I don't want to be in a situation where the sound recorder isn't available or I'm working with multiple sound recorders and getting different quality/performance each time. So I will buy the equipment and if I just can't do it then I will sell it and hire someone. Maybe it sound wierd or dumb to some people, but under my circumstances I think it's the best solution for me.
 
I think Jeremy or Matt said it best, Do you want good audio or good audio gear?

You can purchase a couple thousand dollars worth of audio gear and have what you need gearwise to get decent audio. If you plan to do many projects a year and you get someone in your posse who focuses on sound aquisition then buying gear might be a good route for you. If you plan is to do a small budget feature every year or so then hiring a pro for the month that you need him/her will get you more bang for your buck. They come with all the gear you will need and the knowledge of how to use it, something purchasing the gear won't get you.

Hiring a pro does not have to mean paying Hollywood level prices, you can pick up an ENG guy for around $4000 a month, give or take. You can find someone even cheaper at a local flim school.

It's your call and people take both paths but those that focus on quality audio over just getting quality gear that COULD get them quality audio tend to have much better results.

In answer to your question, getting two cheaper mics that work for different situations will get you better audio overall as opposed to getting one really expensive mic that only sounds good in certain situations. Unless of course you are only shooting in one type of environment, then you can get by with one mic. But again, simply getting the mic(s) won't get you the audio you desire. You have to know why you need more then one mic, when to use which, how to control your environment, and what to do when things don't go as planned.

If you continue ahead in getting the gear, get the Jay Rose book already mentioned. Best money you will spend on audio: http://www.dplay.com/book/pgs2e/index.html

Cheers
 
Wabbit said it best (as he has been doing lately, what happened to the smart ass crap we used to get? Who is this guy?)...

Good Gear or Good Sound.

I've done sound on projects and I'm not a pro but for anything major I always turn to a pro. I also have thousands of dollars in gear. So if I have all this crap, why do I hire someone? Because I want good sound.

Read Wabbit's signature and make up your mind what's important.

-Jeremy
 
Mike,

I've probably picked on you enough, but I do want to ask you a question. Are you directing and/or DP'ing your project? If so, do you really think you can focus on picture, performance and sound all at the same time? This is why having someone on set that knows sound improves the overall quality of your movie. It isn't just that you will get better sound, but you will also have one less worry, so you can focus on picture and performance. This is often overlooked.

And, as far as budget goes, try Craig's List. There are lots of mixer/recordists out there that will work on low budget projects (either they're starting out, or like your project enough to give you a price break.) Often, you will find someone that will work just for equipment rental costs. I do this a lot for low budget, when the people and the project are good. Ask nicely and politely and I bet you'd be surprised at the responses you get. But, if your post says something like, "Looking for a sound mixer with more than 10 years of experience willing to work for copy credit and meals. You will also have to cover all out-of-pocket expenses because all of our budget is being put into production costs. Send your resume, demo reel and 10 references to..." I don't think you'll be surprised at the responses you get.

Phil
 
I am directing the project, as well as being writer and editor. I have a separate producer and will have separate DP, Gaffer, Sound Recorder, and Boom Operator. I wasn't clear on that when I started this thread. I was planning on buying the equipment but getting someone who knows sound to monitor levels, noise, consistency of the audio, etc. I know a foley artist that can help me with the sound in post, maybe even hook me up with someone who can do ADR if necessary.

I'm not really counting on getting anyone with a lot of professional experience as I couldn't really afford to. My producer is someone from film school that has so far produced only a DV short film that cost over $10,000. The DP I'm in talks with is also someone I know from film school that DP'd shorts while we were there and is now a camera operator for a news station. I'm kind of aiming for getting people who want to break into the industry, need a good movie on their resume, and so will care about the project/movie being a success so that they can be a success. Whether they are paid or not, and up-front or deferred, will be handled on an individual basis. Same for the actors.

I know you are trying to help and I appreciate that so no offense taken. However, I am not as naive as you may think. I have a strong business sense and have a pretty good idea how the industry works. I definitely don't know everything though, and that's why I'm here asking questions. I've been planning this for a long time and now I'm just trying to execute it all properly to get the best movie I can without putting myself out on the street.
 
Well that is cool Flmmkr. The reason this comes up so much (hire a professional) is that A LOT of people come on with little to no knowledge of sound and want to pick up a couple of pieces of cheap audio gear and walk away with broadcast quality audio. They seem to be under the misperception that the audio guy is like a PA who is overpaid and unneccessary. "I can mount the shotgun on camera, monitor with my $30 headphones, and ride the levels...as I keep the frame, forcus, and everything else...no problem."

Your mention of the camera mounted shotgun pretty much set off alarm bells in all our heads. The confusion over mono/stereo recording and questioning the need for at least two mics kinda reinforced that concern. And then finally this comment:


flmmkr said:
How do I go about picking one that is going to give me the best performance within my budget with quality that could rival a mid- to large-budget feature? At least something you'd see (hear) at Sundance or Cannes, or even better.
Click to expand...

Those sort of high expectations while planning to invest a minimal amount into sound just spells disaster. You hire guys just starting out, you get mediocre but hopefully usable sound. It will not "rival mid- to large- budget features". Probably need more ADR then you had hoped (and most people starting out have way too high expectations of the simplicity and quality of ADR).

Of course all of these "ignoring sound" bias's get reinforced at film school where they hand a boom pole to the guy who drew the shortest straw that day. Have you ever seen a student film where the sound didn't make you cringe?

But if you got someone who knows what they are doing to take care of audio, then you are good to go. What I would suggest is you get the guy who is going to do the audio to help you put your audio package together. If it is his/her responsiblity to get good audio then he/she should be the one deciding what and how many mics to get within whatever your budget is (along with all the other necessary equipment).

Good luck
 
There's no way I would attempt to direct and be DP and sound recorder at the same time. I don't want to take anything away from the actors and as director that is one of my greatest responsibilities on the set. Sorry if I wasn't clear about my intentions.

When I asked that question I may have been overstating my expectations. When I was in film school we used a combination of good sound recording equipment and inexperienced sound recorders (students of course). Add to that we were all students who were still learning and not really sure what we were doing and you have issues. My last film school project we shot ended with pretty horrible sound so we ADR'd the entire thing, dialogue and sound effects. Cool thing was they did it for free (except for a meal). It turned out 100x better than I was expecting (I was the editor and when I first started editing and heard the sound I panicked). I suppose I was thinking if we were able to get that sound equipment in film school it must have been really good (why would they teach with crappy equipment... cheapskates!) and all I needed was to do was spend money of "decent" equipment and record it correctly. Now I know I still need to get really excellent quality equipment... but I still have a budget.

So, now here is what I've decided on:
Audio Technica AT4073A Shotgun Mic
Oktava MK012A Hypercardioid Mic
Gitzo G7680C Carbon Fiber Fishpole 33" - 151.1"
Rycote Windshield 4 Zeppelin/Blimp 330mm
Rycote Windjammer 4 Windscreen for Windshield
K-Tek K-SSM Shock Mount
Sound Devices MixPre Portable 2-Channel Microphone Field Mixer
Canare Star-Quad L-4E6S 25ft XLR Male to XLR Female Cable x2
Sony MDR-7506 Professional Monitor Headphones

Yes, I decided to go with a mixer. I figure this package will cost me about $2500 after any taxes and any shipping. Way more than double my initial budget, but it's worth the extra investment, right?

Will everything in this package work well together? Is the zeppelin the right size for the shotgun?

BTW, Anechoic, that Ken Stone article was very helpful... thanks!
 
Last edited:
check the used items ,

the mix pre is one that i will never touch for this kind of work, better to invest in 302 instead ( better metering and o, better preamp gain structure ,better output stage for dv cameras
dont forget to build the snake to hear the return from the camera +extension , you will probably need for 60feet at least .
usually for exteriors you need 15 feet boom for wide shots
dont for get some sort of headphone umplifiere to give you monitoring if your soundman wants not to suffer by splitting his headphones
 
You say go check the used items so I went to the Marketplace forum and there's nothing from my list there. Did you see something in my list for sale somewhere? I should let you know I typically don't buy used things.

I went through and read more about the MixPre here. As I stated before, I'm more than double my original budget now, and not really interested in going to triple. Is there anything in that proce range that will give me what I need? Or am I stuck spending $1200 on a mixer?

And you're saying run 60ft cables from the camera to the mixer and make a snake for the XLR and audio back to the mixer, and then 15ft from the mixer to the mic? Is that right? I haven't seen 60ft cables. I've seen 50ft, but not 60ft.
 
oleg is just saying that the 302 is a vastly better mixer than the mixpre, which is true. oleg is also one of the most experienced and professional people on this forum, so, no offense, but he's in another league to you (and me) - thats why he says stuff like that, because he knows what the standards are for great audio.

but i actually think you've got a decent kit there. yes, i would get the 302, but no, you wont find a better mixer than the mixpre in the $600ish range, so you ARE doing the rigt thing if that is the true ceiling of your budget.

one cool thing about SD products is their resale is flippin amazing on ebay - if you pay $600 for a mixer, you could get back as much as $550 sometimes. Ive seen it happen. So upgrading one day is an option.

On your mic choice:
Those mics are regarded here as the first level of pro microphones (int and ext respectively). so good choice. just remember, they arent high budget feature mics, they cant work miracles, and they only yield great results in great environments (i.e. quiet and low reverb)... but thats not to say they dont yield great results, i own both of those mics and i like them a lot.

re the cable, just check out the options - maybe you dont need 50ft for your film, but if its feature maybe you do. i do eng with a (i think) around 20ft cable most times, and sometimes less (i rent still).
 
flmmkr said:
You say go check the used items so I went to the Marketplace forum and there's nothing from my list there. Did you see something in my list for sale somewhere? I should let you know I typically don't buy used things.
--------------------------------
your budget is quit low for normal production , so used items are better than nothing to complete the normal working package
,the market place on this forum is not exactly the place tollok
check
trew audio
coffey sound .
lsc
gotham sound in NY
bblist uk
location sound in NY
turner audio
martY eTIas site and many other music secend hand

the sites i wrote check the equip they sell so you dont buy cat in the saCk ( that's Hebrew version - not been ..fu)

----------------------------------------------------


I went through and read more about the MixPre here. As I stated before, I'm more than double my original budget now, and not really interested in going to triple. Is there anything in that proce ran

ge that will give me what I need? Or am I stuck spending $1200 on a mixer?



do you interested to get audio right - or you interested not to go over ?
sorry these numbers of yours are ridiculous to make normal setup
if you wanna saffer and work armature way -its your decision
-------------------------------------------------
And you're saying run 60ft cables from the camera to the mixer and make a snake for the XLR and audio back to the mixer,

you make snake for 20 feet with brake and you make extension cable with type of connectors you have the brake ,typically its 7pin xlrs for unbalance returns
that for your soundman not to have run after camera as some shmock on every shot you move 2 meters.
----------------------------------------------------
and then 15ft from the mixer to the mic? Is that right? I haven't seen 60ft cables. I've seen 50ft, but not 60ft

you will need about 80 feet of cables to give your boom operator go with the camera you will need double since cables die sometimes :-)
Click to expand...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top