Martial art films

L

Lor

Well-known member
Is it just me or is this intentional? When it comes to fighting scenes especially in martial art, western movies tends to hide the art and only show the studio crafted sound bytes. I barely see any western movie that shows fighting skills like Iron Monkey with Donnie Yen, Hero with Jet Li, or any of Tony Jaa's three latest movies. Most if not all of the punches or kicks that lands on contact are edited out in western type of fighting movies. The framing was up so close that the viewer barely see any beautifully kick or punch.

So my questions are, is this just a cultural differences or is it a director's call? Are there sources on how to shoot fighting scenes like those movies I mentioned above?
 
My friend and I were just discussing this the other day, and he suggested that the reason why is because Hollywood lacks actors who are classically trained in martial arts like Tony Jaa or Jet Li. They have plenty of stuntmen who can take hits, but most of the time they're dealing with actors who are physically fit but simply do not have the dexterity and speed that comes from years of training. So what you end up with is a lot of quick cuts and wire work.
 
Lor said:
Is it just me or is this intentional? When it comes to fighting scenes especially in martial art, western movies tends to hide the art and only show the studio crafted sound bytes. I barely see any western movie that shows fighting skills like Iron Monkey with Donnie Yen, Hero with Jet Li, or any of Tony Jaa's three latest movies. Most if not all of the punches or kicks that lands on contact are edited out in western type of fighting movies. The framing was up so close that the viewer barely see any beautifully kick or punch.

So my questions are, is this just a cultural differences or is it a director's call? Are there sources on how to shoot fighting scenes like those movies I mentioned above?
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I agree. Examples off the top of my head that have good martial arts sequences are The Matrix and Kill Bill vol 1&2.
 
From what I've read so far, all Tony Jaa's stunts are done by himself. It really bothers me when I watch a western movie fighting scene and I did not see any contact hits or kicks at all. All the framing are so close and they try to make the camera shakes in a way that suppose to make the viewer feel like they're up there in the fight, but to me that kind of camera tricks is easy and cheesy.

Hollywood movies have all of these wonderful CGI but when it comes to fighting scenes, it still lacks this beautifully choregraphed moves that the Asian martial art movies have been dominated for years.
 
Martial arts - are from east (China, Japan, Korea, etc.).

Chuck Norris, Dolph Lundgren, Steven Seagal uses EASTERN martial arts.

And it would be wery stupid if Clint Eastwood would use martial arts in western, or Stallone or Schwarzenegger would use martial arts for their action movies :)
 
Yes, that's why I said in my initial post that perhaps it is also a cultural differences. However, even if it is not a martial art movie, any fighting scenes, you would not see where the fist or foot landed on the other person. Most of these shots are edited cut. That's why I'm trying to figure why and how do I avoid cutting those shots out but still looks real.
 
I think it's just a norm.

I think it's also because of the classically trained fighters argument.

For the matrix, as an example, they had months and months of training, whereas other films I doubt they go through that much vigorous work.

Hollywood editors/directors/dps see the quick cutting, CU's, and breaking axis as a way of making a fight seem more vigorous and exciting. Personally it gives me a headache sometimes... all the time.

I mean they believe it so much they implemented this technique in Transformers. I'm sorry, but when I saw the fighting in transformers, all I saw was a mesh of wires. If I wanted to see that I would look behind my computer and shake my head left and right.

As for these martial arts movies, well they make movies to purposely showcase the fighting, and that's why they make less cuts and go wider. Plus they usually feature trained fighters. Tony Ja's movies, for example, aren't so much about the story, but they're more about being a long demo reel for Tony Ja to show off to the world.

So yes, I think it's both a cultural thing and the training experience of the actors.
 
That's true too; however, I have seen some quite good martial artist actor but some of the shots or framing are pretty much amateurish. At that point, I think it's either the choreographer or director's fault.
 
nouou said:
I agree. Examples off the top of my head that have good martial arts sequences are The Matrix and Kill Bill vol 1&2.
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That's sarcasm, right? :P

Those fight scenes were kinda laughable. Though I did think that the choreography was pretty cool, the execution of the fight moves was...lackluster, like too robotic or something. But maybe it was a stylistic choice. Plus, I didn't like any of the Matrix flicks, so maybe I'm a bit biased. :D

I liked the fight scene in The Bourne Ultimatum when Bourne fights Desh (the moped 'asset'). It was fast, tight and I could feel the hits. Reminds me of getting into fights at school, but not as sloppy.

I'm still waiting for someone to finally put this guy's talents to good use. His last good fight film was Drive, but his best was Crying Freeman.
 
I as was surfing the web I found this clip in youtube. As far as the actor's fighting is concern, I think he is pretty good. However, I think some of those cuts, angles, and framing needs improvement. However, I'm not sure what could make it a better scene as I'm learning this stuff my self.
 
the Shaolin temple was my favorite, and this film impressed a lot to the Chinese people in 1980s. In my point of view, it's because of this movie which make Shaolin temple famouse out of China. Another martial art movies I like most is the Huang Fei Hong (name of the character in the film）series. If someone feels interest, try to take a look at it.
 
Lor said:
I as was surfing the web I found this clip in youtube. As far as the actor's fighting is concern, I think he is pretty good. However, I think some of those cuts, angles, and framing needs improvement. However, I'm not sure what could make it a better scene as I'm learning this stuff my self.
Click to expand...

Gotta say, that's not all too great. Not saying he's not skilled, but all I'm seeing is showy martial arts. Meaning a lot of spinning. Spinning doesn't make a great martial arts fight. Tornado kicks, back kicks, spinning back kicks, jump kicks and spinning in the air just hides (or shows) bad choreography.

I think with bourne, tony jaa, and many other films, now we expect a more raw, bones to bones, 3 move close combat takedown type of fighting.

Hmm, I've always wanted to make a film like this. I should talk to my friends at my Dojo and work on something over the summer...
 
Well, Jackie Chan is your prime example. He threatened to quite at age 40 was it? Because his body could not hold up? The Studios took notice and cut him a break and gave him a shot. An amazing guy, not sure if he got the box office hits though. But the problem was, as he said, the orient movies are all fight based whereas the Ameraican movies have to have stories in between the fighting, the fighting alone will not carry the film.
'Thats' the difference. :beer:

//browsing...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOEUgbiBXMc
 
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Here's an American film that has both story and kung fu fight scenes(wideshots)....with no special effects and wire work.

Kungfused


Don't let the silly title fool ya. ;)
 
I'm not a fan of CU action CU camera shake CU stuntman CU reaction Camera shake, you get the idea. I'm not sure if its due to age but I get a headace when I see a fight scene that like. I like to see it all, keep it wide and cut to a tighter shot when it matters.
 
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