Making vocals sound more like film?

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I have been filming a indy feature about frisbee and have a question about film dialogue. I have been recording dialogue on a Audio-Technica AT835b Shotgun Mic, and the audio sounds amazing. I get very little background noise and it sounds very realistic. That's the problem. My DVX-100A does a great job of making the picture look fictitious, but the sound is too realistic. When I look at professional film dialogue, the dialogue fits the picture. Is there something special filter that audio is run through, or is it truly the mic?

Here is a clip of audio that I have recorded. Is there any way to make this audio sound better?
http://city.bryan.edu/~rogersma/filmsound.mp3

Thanks,

Matthew Rogers
 
Re: Making vocals sound more like film?

An audio software is a good place to start such as ProTools DV Toolkit. Pro Tools LE is bundled with it. (digidesign.com) If you already have a audio program, pull back off the low range. You could even try recording some background ambience and then layer it in with your dialogue.
 
Re: Making vocals sound more like film?

>An audio software is a good place to start such as ProTools DV Toolkit.  >Pro Tools LE is bundled with it. (digidesign.com)  If you already have a >audio program, pull back off the low range.  You could even try >recording some background ambience and then layer it in with your >dialogue.

I already have Peak and Final Cut Pro HD for my G5, so I was hoping that would do it for me. The problem with Pro Tools is you need hardware to run it with. EQ'ing it helped some, but it still sounded like the sound was jumping off the screen too much. I also tried background ambience, and that helped it some selling the location, but still not enough. I just cannot figure out the quality that professional film dialogue has that I can't repeat. Anyone else with any clues?

Thanks,

Matthew Rogers
 
Re: Making vocals sound more like film?

You don't need ProTools and in fact while ProTools HD is a great product, ProTools LE is nothing to write home about - at all.  Look into Cubase SX, Nuendo or Logic.  Any of those three will provide you with more than enough tools, in fact Nuendo competes directly with larger ProTools rigs.

[EDIT: I also do quite a lot of work on the DV track waveform adjusting gain all through the wave form to get each sound to be at the volume I would like it to be at. I remove unwanted background noise, put good ambiance back if necessary, make small eq adjustments at different points add a little compression if necessary. I then automate the mix (faders) when mixing the track. Good audio is all about making a lot of very small changes that add up to something good.]

Matt
 
Re: Making vocals sound more like film?

I use (Sonic Foundry) Sound Forge to do all my audio tweaks. A good mic will definetly help too.
 
Re: Making vocals sound more like film?

I forgot about SoundForge - yes another excellent program. Didn't Sony buy that?  If so it probably integrates very nicely with Vegas.

Matthew, this would be easier to get into if I knew what you were already doing with sound in post.  I listened to your clip, which is nice quality btw, but it is impossible to make any recommendations without hearing it in context.  [EDIT: It's sort of like asking for advice on color correction and then posting a single frame grab of a shot of a red sweater with nothing else in the frame. It's a great shot, but there's not enough information to advise.]

Is something being played under it, and that's what you're having a problem with?  The track is a little dry, you could try adding a hint of reverb.  Not so much that you go, "hey, there's reverb" just a hint.  Of course this is also dependent upon the space she's in.  If she's talking in a cathedral you'd want more than a hint.  

I've said this before but, working with audio isn't about doing "something" that fixes it.  It's about making lots of little changes all over the mix that have a cumulative effect and produce something good.  You can't isolate one part of the mix unless all you are trying to do is clean up the waveform (which is a great place to start by the way).  As far as her waveform goes, it was too short to really tell, but you might want to think about some use of a desser or manipulate that manually.

Tell us more or post a more inclusive, longer clip.  I love working with audio and I'll do whatever I can to help.

Matt
 
Re: Making vocals sound more like film?

Recording wild, ambient (environmental) sound and carefully mixing it with the dialogue will help a lot.
 
Re: Making vocals sound more like film?

[quote author=MattC link=board=audio;num=1099077415;start=0#5 date=10/31/04 at 07:51:38]Matthew, this would be easier to get into if I knew what you were already doing with sound in post.  I listened to your clip, which is nice quality btw, but it is impossible to make any recommendations without hearing it in context.  [EDIT: It's sort of like asking for advice on color correction and then posting a single frame grab of a shot of a red sweater with nothing else in the frame.  It's a great shot, but there's not enough information to advise.]

Is something being played under it, and that's what you're having a problem with?  The track is a little dry, you could try adding a hint of reverb.  Not so much that you go, "hey, there's reverb" just a hint.  Of course this is also dependent upon the space she's in.  If she's talking in a cathedral you'd want more than a hint.  

I've said this before but, working with audio isn't about doing "something" that fixes it.  It's about making lots of little changes all over the mix that have a cumulative effect and produce something good.  You can't isolate one part of the mix unless all you are trying to do is clean up the waveform (which is a great place to start by the way).  As far as her waveform goes, it was too short to really tell, but you might want to think about some use of a desser or manipulate that manually.
[/quote]

My film is a mockumentry about two ultimate frisbee teams in a frisbee turny. We are doing a bunch of interviews and games that I have this dialogue recorded for.

That clip was shot outside on a football field. I added some crickets, a dog barking, and some people shouting in the background (two people are passing a frisbee behind the interview.) Those sounds really help make it seem more real, but the dialogue still sounds too "real." Feature film's dialogue have a "unreal" or "fictional" quality. If you listen to my sound clip, and then listen a professional film, you will hear a big difference. What I'm trying to findout is, is it truly the microphone, or is there a filter(s) that I can use to make it sound filmlike. I'd like to get the most professional result of out my film with what I've got because I have some people in Hollywood interested in the film. However, I don't want to keep playing with something if I know it's never going to sound that way.

Thanks,

Matthew
 
Re: Making vocals sound more like film?

Hmmm.... Ok.  Do you think it sounds too "real" because it's so present?  Meaning present in the mix?  I would be inclined to agree with Moe, perhaps what you want to hear is an ambient floor?  I don't really know what you mean by an "unreal quality" or fictional quality.

Ok, I just listened to the clip again.  First off, let's be clear about one thing.  Are you sure it's the sound quality you're unhappy with, or could it possibly have something to do with how the actor delivered the lines?  I don't mean to be rude in anyway, but that's a big part of what I think you may be perceiving - but I could be way off base.  Also, perhaps you recorded it (or more precisely you feel it sounds) too clean for what you're seeing on screen?  If so, an ambient floor will certainly help with that.  This is not just adding in sound FXs, such as a dog barking, but rather, as Moe said, recording the field for about an hour (or other places if you like the sound better there for that matter, but it would probably be best if you used the actual location) and then mixing that in as one track under your dialog and under your sound effects.  The clip as it stands is nice dialog, but in a movie you very rarely hear just dialog.  There is ambient sound, there are foley tracks made up of all sorts of "people sounds" such as footsteps or rustling clothes.  There's wind (not the kind you get in a bad dialog recording, but added carefully for effect) there are sound effects.  All of this comes together to create a mix.  Now, just as with music, it is important to place your sounds in the mix.  Dialog you're going to want to keep centered (more than likely) but still you can use reverb (carefully) and gain yo create depth, you might notch out frequencies in the vocal range of your actors in the underlying tracks so that the dialog "sits in the mix".  Your brain filters most of this out.  It filters it out while you go about your day, and it filters it out (to a certain extent) when you watch a movie.  But if it's NOT there you'll notice...  I think that may be what you're picking up on?

Again, since I'm not really sure what you're referring to specifically it's hard for me to respond other than how I did.  If you don't feel that this helped keep talking it out, I'm sure we can figure it out.  
 
Re: Making vocals sound more like film?

Though I am no audio expert, I've been forced to sound edit my own feature due to unforseen events.

I wouldn't use peak, i played with it and it in my eyes kinda sucks. If you are doing a feature film and are doing the edit yourself, either get Protools or Nuendo products. i'm currently using CuBase SL, but you'd want at least Cubase SX so you can use plugins.

I totally understand what you mean by movie sound. I'm not exactly sure what is used, but it's most probably a plugin. some type of EQ.

your audio is good. Count yourself lucky that you have such clean audio. What you may want to try(you may have done this), is once you layer backgrounds, try lowering the dialogue audio to see if it fits into the scene more. Mix until it starts to sound good. It may do the trick. Also, take a listen on your TV if you get a chance to get alternate sources of it to let you know how it sounds on stereos other than say your computer.

But, I'm sure the main answer to your question is plugins. you can get plugins that do just about anything, but they may cost an arm and a leg.(might be able to download - but only work with audio software).
 
Re: Making vocals sound more like film?

Stabb makes some good points, but I'm not sure if a single plugg is going to do it. I have some pretty pricey pluggs from Waves and others (I love waves products) but again I think you're looking at doing a lot of little things. For example it wouldn't be uncommon to use a little verb, a little equalization, a little de-essing, a little compression, a little waveform editing... etc. Now good pluggs do a better job of handling each step, but it is still a cumulative effort.

Where I think Stab is dead on, is with regards to getting the dialog to sit in the mix. As I said before, I think once you hear it mixed properly with all the necessary layers to make it sound like a film, you will find that your dialog track works very nicely. I know this is probably frustrating because we're not giving you detailed advise but its the best we can do. I can't hear her uncompressed, I don't know what her voice actually sounds like, I don't know what you're putting the dialog over (meaning I can't here it) and I don't know what I would be seeing. For example, I don't think you really need to worry about compression, at least on the dialog track as, from what I've heard, it is present and without much dynamic range, however compression might be very important on your ambient track. I do think you should experiment with miniscule amounts of reverb. But here's a problem/tip: what you want to achieve is depth without a noticable "verb sound". The problem comes over time. You hear it dry, add just a touch of verb and it sounds better. But then you get used to that and eventually add just a tad more, and so on, and so on....

Once you get a setting that works leave it, at least for a while.

Here is another tip. Music mixers do this all the time and I think it would help you. Assuming you are working in an audio application like Nuendo or Cubase SX. Grab some audio from a film that you like the audio of that is similiar to the movie you are making, try to get it straight from a dvd rather than a downloaded mp3. Try to get a few different sample of a minute or so each and at least one should be almost ONLY dialog (or as close to that as you can get). Load all these samples into a new project along with a portion of your own dialog. Once that's done, start to A/B the tracks. Really listen to the film tracks that you like and then try and make tiny adjustments to your track to match what you are hearing in your reference track (the reference track is the track from the movie you are referencing). Listen to the reference track(s) again, this time to determine what layers are there, and start to create the same layers for your film, then listen to how these layers are mixed and automated and try to mimic those results in your film, constantly going back and forth between your material and the reference material. Every sound engineer does this at ALL levels of experience - the only thing that changes is how you hear.

I would also recommend the book: Audio Postproduction for Digital Video by Jay Rose, but again this book wont "fix" your problems. You still need to do what I just said, but the book will help you to listen and identify problems and solutions better.

Remember - lots of small adjustments achieve good results.
 
Re: Making vocals sound more like film?

Ok, here's a video clip of some of the footage that I mixed with background sounds. http://city.bryan.edu/~rogersma/trial.mov

I took down the bass in Kate's (the actress) voice. I think one of my problems may be is that my mic tends to be "boomy" on the low end--it does not have clear bass. What I have isn't bad, but I'd like to get it to sound the most professional possible. I just wish I could findout how hollywood mixers take raw dialogue and processes it. I probably should call the guy I know that is a re-recorder at Todd-AO, he might be able to tell me how they do it.

Any suggestions still?

Matthew
 
Re: Making vocals sound more like film?

Hire a post sound guy to take care of this for you. That's what they are there for. They have the right tools to do the right job.

BTW, Pro Tools LE, in the right hands, is a great tool, and I have written home about it. I have tried Nuendo, and didn't like it. I know people that have used it, and liked it though. I don't like much of the software from Sony these days (plus it's PC only). Peak is ok for some basic 2 track stuff, but nothing fantastic. In my opinion, Pro Tools with some basic plug ins should do the trick. Again, since it seems like it doesn't sound like you want to buy it ( and you shouldn't have to), I recommend you hire a post sound person to take care of this. You will be very happy you did.

-Dave
 
Re: Making vocals sound more like film?

I didn't mean any offense Dave, I've worked with big ProTools rigs and loved it, but for my taste I think ProTools LE is less of a DAW than others in its price range. But that's just my opinion, at the end of the day they're just tools.

Matt
 
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