Making money from one's camera.

Barry_Green said:
I can't stand it, I hate everything about the process -- but I've got the ultimate respect for those who do it well. It's a lot of work.
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Barry, your comments are well put and well taken. My comments are a matter of my own opinion and I feel very strongly about them. I worked very hard to get beyond the world of wedding videography, corporate videos and public access-level commercials. Believe me, I have been there. I freelanced for 3 years in college doing it to support myself and my work as a filmmaker. I just personally believe that in such an industry with amazing creative opportunities, there is reason to strive for something beyond that world. Again, I am sorry if I offended anyone.
 
Barry_Green said:
And a wedding shooter can be refining their storytelling skills, working with their gear, getting experience, and mastering a craft (even if it is "only weddings") vs. flipping burgers.

Regarding "lowest rung on the ladder" -- depends on what ladder you're talking about. If someone wants to work in film, making films, then they should go out and make films.

Shooting ENG or convention coverage is ideal
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Indeed. Shooting weddings allows me to make my $ from my own creative gifts and juices while I work on my dramatic features...and as mentioned, increase my skills, rather than have any non related job that would suck all my time and soul while I take the crumbs of free time left to struggle out a movie. It is not my goal to make a lifelong career from doing wedding videos, but if for some reason it was all I ever had it still beats the stuffing out of kissing any.....ANY bosses ass....anywhere, and having to keep a schedule forced on me by the man. Wedding video is also one of the more steady sources of video work in my area.....which is a factor that must be considered. Not everyone lives in a place that has ENG and convention work falling out of the sky....not to mention I would never want to live in an area that would....I prefer the rural life.
As far as just being fun, wedding videography is wide open for creativity...just being able to express yourself artistically, if one has the vision to do so. It's all in the individual outlook. I can honestly say I find any and all video that I get the op to shoot/edit comepletely fascinating, no matter what type of video it is. One of my first jobs was shooting a product demo DVD of color changing coffee mugs...just one mug after another on a black background having water poured into them and showing the changes. It was so awesome when I cranked the master ped down and made those mugs look totally isolated in space...the lady was amazed at how it turned out!

Oh no! That dude on Persephone has forced Mal and Jayne to come to his tent at gun point....wonder what he wants? You cant take the sky from meeeee.....!

Much like the crew of Serenity (Jayne not widthstanding), for me, it's not just about the money....it's about independence....and I am, if anything, Fiercely Independent!
 
Since you brought it up. Why didn't Jayne sound strange to me as his name? I've been wracking my brains for a while trying to figure out what other Jayne I've run across. In literature? Another film/tv show?

Dan
 
I think it's just the poetic contrast between his frame/personality and name....it's so out of whack it's perfect! Do you remember him from the classic film My Bodyguard?
 
Pretty sure I didn't see it.

And, no, it wasn't the contrast that I was feeling. It was just not even a moment of confusion, like he was named Hillary or Beverly or Gale or Kimberly. Not even a blink, which to me says I've heard it before as a man's name.

Maybe I'll just ask Joss, if I run into him.

Dan
 
Barry_Green said:
Now, on the other hand, I'm with natob2 on this one. Shooting ENG or convention coverage is ideal. I don't know about $1500/day, that seems way, way high -- the going rate around here is $1350 per day for a two-person crew and gear, usually a shoulder-mount camera and a sound person running an FP-33 mixer and a 416 mic on a boom pole. But yes, the luxury of shooting, handing over the tape and walking away -- that's sweet. For a DVX shooter who's good at what they do, $850/day is certainly do-able. No editing -- that's the ticket!
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You know whats funny, is that my friend just recently got done telling me a story about his wedding videographer who charged 2500 and did exactly that. Handed him a tape after the wedding reception! My point is that I don't think someone who even takes it remotely seriously would just hand over a tape at the end of a wedding. I think conventions and such are a bit different.
 
two cents

two cents

I've just come out of filming my first wedding.

For $3500 bucks, I shot a 40minute love story of them over a year period. (What, a year for 40 mins? Well we shot maybe 8 hours of footage, it was like a mini movie with script and everything).

Then we shot their ceremony and the reception. I was late to the reception, very very late. They were pissy, but because we were putting final touches on the aforementioned mini movie, they got over it.

The movie got a standing ovation at the reception, and they're still waiting (1 month now) for their wedding video. Again, the goodwill built up with the movie makes them not care so much.

Did I earn the money, yes absolutely. However, realizing that most people wouldn't cut this kind of deal I'll tell you about the ceremony day. It is hard work, you end up physically tired, but if you get winning shots, there's plenty of room to be creative. I say go for it, and at least pay off your DVX that way.

Just make sure that your mini movie doesn't have an outtake of a guy showing his man-tits, and then have that playing in the background while the groom and his mother are having their good bye dance.

And then make damn sure you don't get it on tape.

Like I did :grin:
 
Slimothy said:
You know whats funny, is that my friend just recently got done telling me a story about his wedding videographer who charged 2500 and did exactly that. Handed him a tape after the wedding reception! My point is that I don't think someone who even takes it remotely seriously would just hand over a tape at the end of a wedding. I think conventions and such are a bit different.
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$2500 for raw footage?
I guess your friend needs to get better at shopping around for good deals.
 
I feel I need to pipe in here with my two cents...

I just shot my first wedding this past weekend. I probably didn't go about it in the most professional manner... business wise I mean.... I have yet to be payed, but I still have the tapes so all is good for now.

anywho, I arrived at the brides house at 11:30 am.... and finished the day at 1:15am... that was a long...long... day.. I hired a friend of mine to be on second camera. In total we got nearly 13 hours of footage, it was pretty insane, especially since it was a greek wedding.

I would have to say that doing the wedding was pretty boring for the most part, but this was a friend's bro that was getting hitched so it wasn't too bad.

I ended up shooting the days events more like a documentary that a "wedding video" as it were... I have some really nicely composed shots in there, and gave my friend (who is editing it) a lot of shots to use to make something nice.

It was a hell of a lot of work though, don't think I would do it as a main career.. but it is definitely something i will get into for the money.

as an aside.. the DVX really shows it's weakness in low light...especially when the groom asks you to shoot the wedding at 24p... ugh... gain cranked to 12db to even see anything.

but anywho.
cheers,
 
Nat,

despite the rather offensive way you stated your point I understand what you are saying. If you want to progress beyond wedding dont devote alot of time to weddings. The problem with that is the vary nature fo wedding allows one to hone the craft that lets them go beyond it if they so choose. I act in theatre and local commercials and industrials. The industrial is to the actor what the wedding video is to the director or cinematographer. When i act in a training video and make $500 for the day I am still a professional actor and perhaps a bit higher on the ladder than say your uncle murray that took drama at Junior college. However I am not working in an environment that will allow me to win an oscar. But every time i look into the camera and explain to my imaginary coworker the benefits of using a certain sales technique when selling fertlizer I am improving my acting skills. Thats all it is. Its practice for the big game. When we shoot wedding videos and get paid we are professional videographers. We are higher up that that same uncle murray that just bought a miniDV at walmart. Every time we frame a bride and groom we shoud be practicing so that some day if we want to move up we will know how to frame Bradd Pitt or Julia Roberts.

I woudl think that any professional woudl understand that a craft such as this requires practice and the development of techniqe more than anything. Woudl you look down on Michael Jordan for having spent hours shooting hoops at a neighborhood court before he became great and played in an arena? When did the rolling stones become great? was it when they were playing bars? wouldnt your logic imply that if they had any talent they wouldnt be playing in a bar? Ray Kroc made mcdonalds into the biggest restaurant chain in the world, but before that he was a lowly milkshake machine salesman. Do you think that his experience selling milkshake machines to resturants helped him recognize the opportunity to go into businessoriginally with the Mcdonald brothers? You see my point, everyone has to start somewhere. Infact starting out anywhere is so much better than not starting out at all.

I for one woudl love to start directing $100 million movies. I mean why not. but i have a feeling i can do less damage doing a $1500 wedding a few times first. Im not upset with what you said. Your point was made (albeit it could have been a bit softer) however dont forget where you came from and where you are.
 
Daniel_Runyon said:
they move so fast and feel so hectic,
there is no time for boredom! It is a definate rush!
The presure is on and you get one shot to get it right!
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sounds like you're lifting eminem lyrics....
:happy:
 
smithgallTV said:
Do you think that his experience selling milkshake machines to resturants helped him recognize the opportunity to go into business originally with the Mcdonald brothers?
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who knew the wedding theme would bring out so much thought and wisdom?

for me, for now, i'm more of a musician than a photographer (though i make more with a camera by the hour than with a guitar it most situations). but in the music biz we have the same dichotomy. you wanna play music? don't work for a record company. seems like the 2 would go hand-in-hand but they don't. HOWEVER, when it comes to playing in say, a wedding band. there are tons of musicians from bands you love who do it. pam bricker, from our band, thievery corporation, was an amazing singer who could take a festival crowd and make them feel like they were in a smokey bar. she was always playing weddings. the more time you're at your instrument, the more honed you become at your craft. the hard part is dealing with the bufoons who hired you when they don't realize that your making fr%&*$n art here, man.
 
robmyers said:
sounds like you're lifting eminem lyrics....
:happy:
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Hilarious observation, Rob! You're right. Thanks a lot, BTW. Next wedding I shoot I'll be hearin that blasted song in my head all day...and feelin it, too! I'd best build my Zen muscles back up, quick!
 
Tina C: Regarding your "making money" question... with a great camera like the one you now own (congratulations!) there are several avenues you can pursue to make extra money:

1) advertising agencies; the one near me does a lot of car commercials. The Account Exec's and creative directors arrange everything. All you do is show up with a camera and a tripod. They pay .44 cents a mile + give you a per diem for lunch/dinner expenses + $250 per day for the camera-person (you) and an extra $250 a day more for your camera rental. Basically you're a subcontractor. Normally the AE's are so disorganized, you only work about a half a day, yet they pay you your full $500 day rate. Larger ad agencies (on bigger accounts) will fly you out of state or even out of the country on exotic shoots. The larger agencies will sometimes have their own DP's, who unlike AE's, will have their sh*t together, so stay sharp and always show up an hour early to the gig. Don't be a know-it-all, be a gentleman or lady at all times and you'll go far. These larger agencies often pay larger fees, $750 to $1000 day is not unheard of; not bad since that includes travel time.

2) Plaintiffs law firms. Find the largest plaintiff's law firm in your state. Ask to make an appointment with the senior partner's executive assistant (secretary). Tell her/him what you do. Give her/him your business card. Use the $500/day rate or whatever you decide. Jobs will include but will not be limited to video depositions of witnesses, accident scenes, workplace disasters (toppled cranes, tunnel cave-ins, aircraft, train and truck accidents, heavy equipment failures). Some gig's you'll be welcomed in as a hero. Other gig's you'll be the enemy. On more than one assignment, I had to be the 'secret agent' videographer. This was back in the 1980's when video cameras where gigantic. The lawyers will want still digital photos as well. I made a full time living off one law firm that lasted for four years. They were the biggest PI (personal injury) firm in Oklahoma, and they had me all over the place, as far South as Cancun and as North as Idaho. Extra money can be had if you assist with evidence exhibits (plastic/wood models, miniature traffic intersections, upscaled mechanical devices, etc. Some of this stuff I farmed out to others, marked it up 100% and invoiced the client lawfirm.) These lawfirm assignments will ususally be "one-chance, one-shot" deals, so you can't screw it up. If you do you may never be asked back.

3) Fortune 500 companies, these are the top manufacturing and service industries in the U.S.A. Almost all of them have in-house "corporate communications" departments located in all 50 states. They've got deep pockets, and will pay good money for you and you camera to record sales training demonstrations, product applications, safety, product assembly & maintence videos, etc, etc, etc. With a FCP or AVID, you could provide a "turn key" video production and charge $5,000 to $15,000 for a 20 minute to 45 minute production. For little to no money (other than what you already have invested) a smart and savvy lad or lassie can make a good living doing 'corporate communications' videos.

4) Large Hospitals: Large and even smaller "regional" hospitals often need video work for inhouse training programs, patient care training, sexual harassment role-playing videos and sometimes public information TV programs that are shown via cable in patients rooms or on the local TV stations. This same idea will apply to any industrial manufacturer in your area. If they don't know what they want to say, tell them you'll write them a filmscript which will contain a shot list and desired objectives. A script will give them something to change (they'll have to change something!). With an approved script, you can ask for 30% down to begin shooting. One hospital North of Dallas told me "our controller won't write checks to individuals. Don't you have a company name?" (I didn't) " I'll be back tomorrow", I told them. I then went down to the local county courthouse and visited the clerk. I paid $10 for the filing of a "doing business as" form or "dba form". (They supply the form.) I made up a company name " ______ Video Productions". The clerk checked the name against state records and found no other name like that in Texas, and then gave me the approved validation form, which I immediately took to my local bank. My friendly bank teller set up an account in the company name. So now I could deposit checks made out to "_________ Video Productions" and I was the sole signer for the account. All perfectly legal. The hospital was happy and immediately cut me a check to "________Video Productions", which I took to the bank and cashed that same afternoon.

It is very important that you realize that some clients will declare your earnings to the IRS, so you might want to form a relationship with a good accountant or bookkeeper, to keep things straight. My accountant's never charged more than $500 per year, and he's saved me thousands in tax deductible write offs. I love this guy.

Closing thoughts:
a) On your first meeting dress sharp. That doesn't mean wear a tie, but if you look good in a tie and suit - play it for all it's worth. Lady videographers usually know this rule already. Just don't show up in jeans with holes in the knees. Remember YOU own the business you're representing.

b) On a good account, don't be to fussy about getting paid at first. Large PI firms and corporations are oftened burdened with purchase order numbers, accounting codes, approval meetings and other things that slow down the process of paying new sub-contractors. Let things slide until they get to know you. A PI firm once owed me $2,500. I stopped by a few weeks later unannouced and found the Executive Assistant and gave her a little gift wrapped surpise (a little cermanic bassett hound I found for $4.95 in a gift shop; I knew she had a bassett, because when I 'cased' her office weeks earlier I saw her photo of her and her pets). She squeeled in delight at the ceramic bassett. She asked me if everything was going alright. I calmly and politely told her I'd never been paid. She apologized and said she'd have a check cut by the close of business that day. I got the check and a week later got offered to be the primary photographer for an air crash disaster in Mexico, which turned out paying very, very well. Albeit, it was a somewhat gruesome assignment, it certainly paid the bills.

I'm not saying don't do weddings. Weddings are o.k. I guess. I'm just saying if you're even halfway clever and can write an audio-visual filmscript, or maybe just show up with your camera and a tripod, you could easily have your own imaging company or advertising agency on the side. No body will ever ask if you work out of your house. And instead of making $1,500 on a wedding, you might make $15,000 doing a 30 minute corporate communications video. On one of my first jobs I bid the assignment at $12,000. I thought the guy might faint, but he seemed unimpressed and just asked simply "when can you start?" Like anything in the visual arts, it's an exciting business. And how much you make is determined only by your ambition, talent and "people skills"....

This is my first post to this wonderful site and I want to commend the folks who worked so hard to set it up. It's an absolute godsend, as it's helping me learn the FCP applications and workflow methods. Hope this helps!
 
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