M. Moore's F. 9/11

Re:  M. Moore's F. 9/11

Re:  M. Moore's F. 9/11

[quote author=Josh_Boelter link=board=movies;num=1087240827;start=75#79 date=07/01/04 at 07:41:27]My fault, Ranger. I misinterpreted your worthless drivel comment. However, that's exactly the kind of thing that happens in this country because of the polcies of the right. Here in Michigan funding for the Detroit Institute of the Arts was devasted because of former governor John Engler's anti-culture policies. The DIA has a wonderful collection but is now only open part time because of all the funding it lost. But hey, the auto companies got some money back, so it worked out okay. But the people here voted Engler into office for two terms.

I never said arts and culture are the sole domain of liberals. They're 97% the domain of liberals. Just kidding. My point was more that the economic policies of the right would not allow for a city such as Barcelona to exist in the United States. I didn't mean it as an attack on you personally.[/quote]

THAT'S absurd.
 
Re:  M. Moore's F. 9/11

Re:  M. Moore's F. 9/11

[quote author=David Jimerson link=board=movies;num=1087240827;start=75#80 date=07/01/04 at 07:44:43]

THAT'S absurd.

[/quote]

I have to agree with David on this one...
 
Re:  M. Moore's F. 9/11

Re:  M. Moore's F. 9/11

Maybe I should back up. I just re-read my post. I'm typing these things on the fly while I'm doing other work. I shouldn't say that a city like Barcelona couldn't exist in the United States. Certainly there are wonderful cultural cities such as New York here. I just don't think the cultural aspects of such a city wouldn't thrive without some public funding. As far as the DIA and other cultural institutions losing funding here in Michigan, that's a fact. I wish it wasn't.
 
Re:  M. Moore's F. 9/11

Re:  M. Moore's F. 9/11

[quote author=Josh_Boelter link=board=movies;num=1087240827;start=75#82 date=07/01/04 at 07:55:39]As far as the DIA and other cultural institutions losing funding here in Michigan, that's a fact. I wish it wasn't. [/quote]

I don't think you should base this decision on one institution losing funding. It could have been a number of reasons for it losing funding, and not just "the republicans not being into art."
 
Re:  M. Moore's F. 9/11

Re:  M. Moore's F. 9/11

I don't think this comment regarding left and right wings and the arts is entirely valid. But given we live in a very capitalistic nation, one would think the arts would be funded far more than they are. How is it that Jim Jarmusch can get funding for his films in Germany but not in the U.S.? What happened to PAYING for great art, even if money isn't being made back in the same week of release?

There are some great art foundations in the U.S., but not a single great one for independent filmmakers. IFP, MPAA, AFI, etc, none of which give a substantial amount to filmmakers, and the MPAA is every filmmaker's enemy (at least mine).

And to rant about the MPAA, it was partly Valenti's fault for regionizing DVDs. How interesting. I love my computer though, which allows me to buy "Dogville" or "In Praise of Love" a full year before the U.S. plays them theatrically. But creating cinematic apartheids (even if PAL, SECAM, NTSC were around before), why not create a pool of wordly cinemas to be shared? Wouldn't buying a DVD from Japan or the Japanese buying a DVD from the US bring in MORE money than a movie ticket?

And like most industries these days, those who conceptualize and create tend to lag behind FAR more than the promoters, money and power wise. Artists have held up mirrors to the public for centuries, and I find it baffling that people wonder why artists go political or address social issues!

Sorry for being off-topic, but the under-funding of the arts in the US is problematic for anyone without the cash to make and create. Imagine how wonderful the output of films would be in this very very rich nation if, for a single year, filmmakers got their work financed by state-run beaurocracies or corporations out of the loop of Hollywood!
 
Re:  M. Moore's F. 9/11

Re:  M. Moore's F. 9/11

[quote author=Josh_Boelter link=board=movies;num=1087240827;start=75#77 date=07/01/04 at 05:39:06]
Personally, I would much rather pay higher taxes and live in a place where that money is used for things like social programs and arts funding. [/quote]
And that is exactly what is great about America. We have 50 states, each with different tax structures. I fyou want to pay high taxes (and have the corresponding social programs and amenities that go with them) you can move to the northeast, or California, or wherever. If you despise taxes, come to Nevada or some other low-tax state.

In America, you can vote with your feet as well as at the polls.
 
Re:  M. Moore's F. 9/11

Re:  M. Moore's F. 9/11

That, and there's nothing stopping you from giving away more of your income than you're taxed to causes you find worthy.
 
Re:  M. Moore's F. 9/11

Re:  M. Moore's F. 9/11

[quote author=Barry_Green link=board=movies;num=1087240827;start=75#85 date=07/01/04 at 10:28:16]
In America, you can vote with your feet as well as at the polls.
[/quote]
Ain't that the truth!
terminator4.jpg

Now here's an example of "worthless drivel".
 
Re:  M. Moore's F. 9/11

Re:  M. Moore's F. 9/11

Even if you don't, if you think you're undertaxed and important things underfunded (like art), by all means, start writing checks.

Or does it only count if it's filtered through a governmental bureaucracy?
 
Re:  M. Moore's F. 9/11

Re:  M. Moore's F. 9/11

Good points Barry and David. I donate to museums. But I believe public funding is important too. I probably wouldn't think to donate money to the schools if I wasn't already doing it through property taxes. I don't have kids and I just don't think about the schools that often. I think about the arts because it's something I'm involved in every day and seeing continued cuts drives me crazy. When it comes time to vote, I'll vote for additional funding for my local school system, even if it raises my taxes, because I believe in the importance of education. But I wouldn't think to give a certain percentage of my salary to the schools if taxes weren't already doing that for me. It's human nature. We think about the things that personally affect us teh most. I'll donate to Alzheimer's research because my grandmother had it, whereas I don't know anyone who's had Leukemia, so I wouldn't think "Hey, I should give some money for Leukemia research."

Of course, having just typed that, I'm thinking, "Hey I should donate to Leukemia research."
 
Re:  M. Moore's F. 9/11

Re:  M. Moore's F. 9/11

Choice. Your freedom to donate to those things you find important -- or NOT donate to things you don't like.

I can get behind leukemia research. But beyond the whole idea of the strings attached to government money when it funds something, and how that might shape the creation of art, I don't particularly want to pay for something I find offensive (like excremental disparagings of Christianity, for which a case can be made that funding such a thing is a First Amendment violation).

I like art. I'm willing to pay for it. Others don't. I don't particularly care to take away their freedom of choice on the matter.
 
Re:  M. Moore's F. 9/11

Re:  M. Moore's F. 9/11

I can definietly see your point. I ***** about my taxes like everyone else. But as for arts funding, yeah, I'll give money to the Detroit Institute of Arts. But I also think the DIA should be open to people who might not have the money to fund that museum. It's a cultural gem in the city of Detroit. It should only be open to people with disposable income. And no, I wouldn't particularly want my taxes to pay for excremental dispargings of Chrsitianity, but I damn dure didn't want my tax dollars used to pay for the deaths of Iraqi citizens and American soldiers either. That is far more offensive to me than any incendiary piece of art. But I didn't have any personal freedom of choice in that matter.
 
Re:  M. Moore's F. 9/11

Re:  M. Moore's F. 9/11

Sorry for the double post, but I meant to say the DIA should not only be open to people with disposable income.
 
Re:  M. Moore's F. 9/11

Re:  M. Moore's F. 9/11

Welcome to the Darkside Josh. ;)

vader.jpg


"Let your taxes be with you."
 
Re:  M. Moore's F. 9/11

Re:  M. Moore's F. 9/11

I’m reluctant to get into this debate, which seems to have moved far from the original post which I hope to be able to find my way back to.

Michael Moore’s movie in general relies no less than fiction on the shaping of ideas and information. That which he selects as truths; the portion of events he chose to emphasize; the quotes, the interviews, the “experts” he included as representative of situations, the settings, the graphics, the sounds and even the background music – all of these elements determined the shape and meanings of this movie.

Because of the media’s enormous power to shape public opinion it has an immense responsibility to elevate concern making the public aware of what is at stake. As the electronic media joins us in a global village, communicating these concerns is as vital to our survival, freedom and prosperity as any human endeavor.

As a filmmaker it is my opinion that this movie is crap because it blithely assumes the inevitable triumph of liberal idealism. This movie simply reflects the tortured polarization of our times and it reflects reality only to the extent of Mr. Moore’s understanding of that reality – which seems simple minded. Any idiot can stand up yell fire in a theater. This movie is useless, Republicans will hate it, Democrats will love it and the more centrist among us will mock its many incongruities. Even if you support the ideals for which Fahrenheit 9/11 was undertaken, its liberal bias did not do the topic justice.

Granted, after viewing this movie and witnessing what has happened in California over the past decade, I am leaning to the right, however, I am Australian. I live in this country because I choose too and think it is the greatest place in the world to live. I have lived all over the world, Australia, England, Scotland, and Korea, and I have worked in the US for companies from England, Italy, Canada, and France and I can tell you that Americans have never been popular in Europe or the Middle East. If any administration tries to manage its foreign policy based on a popularity contest it will lose. These countries do not even like each other – get over it.

This movie conveys “truth” only within Michael Moore’s ability to communicate, I don’t know (any more or less than Moore) what is true. Moore has had a lot of opportunity to distinguish the difference between truth or non-fiction and fiction; this is clearly a work of fiction and it is my opinion that he has positioned this movie in a way to cause controversy to sell tickets. I do not have a problem with that, smart marketing. However, in his prior movies he rails against this kind of capitalism. He likes to point out the evils of American Corporations yet he is upset when Disney refused to distribute his movie. By his own definition, Disney is the “mother” of American Corporations. It is this kind of hypocrisy that erodes his credibility. :-/
 
Re:  M. Moore's F. 9/11

Re:  M. Moore's F. 9/11

[quote author=ChuckS link=board=movies;num=1087240827;start=90#95 date=07/01/04 at 22:22:32]Moore has had a lot of opportunity to distinguish the difference between truth or non-fiction and fiction; this is clearly a work of fiction and it is my opinion that he has positioned this movie in a way to cause controversy to sell tickets.  I do not have a problem with that, smart marketing.  However, in his prior movies he rails against this kind of capitalism.  He likes to point out the evils of American Corporations yet he is upset when Disney refused to distribute his movie.  By his own definition, Disney is the “mother” of American Corporations.  It is this kind of hypocrisy that erodes his credibility.  :-/
[/quote]
I’m glad you joined in the discussion, not because I am biased to your viewpoint, but because your position was well articulated without venomous rhetoric. I especially enjoyed your last six sentences (quoted above). You brought up a point that did not cross my mind. It does seem like Moore’s hypocrisy has come full circle becoming the thing he professes to hate the most. A Shakespearean tragedy.

Well said! ;)
 
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