Lowest noise H4n setting for NTG-2?

[Fidelio]

Hi all,

Just got an NTG-2/H4n combo and I have a question regarding noise.

Which H4n setting is better for the NTG-2 to adopt, the Mono Mix that basically shuts off Input 2 and just replicates Input 1, or just the mono Input 1, with 1/2 Link off, so as to turn down the rec level of Input 2 completely?

I've recorded all three scenarios (Mono Mix, Input 1 only with 1/2 Link on [with full rec levels on both inputs] and Input 1 only with 1/2 Link off [with Input 2 turned down completely]) and Mono Mix sounds somewhat better to my ears (not sure if that's just because it's a more balanced output to begin with.)

Would the Mono Mix be the best option for the NTG-2? It sounds decent to my ears but from having browsed the forums it appears that there's been some fuss over it as well, although I'm not quite sure exactly what, or if it concerns noise (read instead about something to do with gain or loudness.) As far as I know the Mono Mix still records in 96/24bit, which is what I'm more concerned about.

On the other hand would an Input 1-only output be more pure and true to the source, or better somehow in post?

Any help would be appreciated. Thanks a lot.

 

[Noiz2]

If your recording dialog you should not be doing it at 96k.

The only difference in "noise" would be if your going to two tracks and then using both you are doubling the noise, but you should also be doubling the signal so...

There isn't going to be any significant noise added to the signal once it's digital. So that noise you are getting is from the mic/ preamp/ A/D converter. None of those change depending on track layout or count.

 

[Rick R]

Don't know about the H4n, but some recorder's mono combine architecture, takes signals from both input channels. In a one microphone scenario, the unterminated input channel would add noise.

 

[Fidelio]

Thanks for the answers guys.

Scott, I'm curious to know why I ought not to record dialogue in 96k? I was under the impression that the higher the fidelity, the better, for anything.

Regarding noise: so would you be suggesting that it's all a matter of perception? That the noise is consistent between the various modes of the H4n in actuality? Somehow it sounds different to me but then again I suppose it's subjective. The "Mono Mix" mode in the H4n specifies that it "blends the left and right signals down to mono then records dual-mono to each left and right channel." Since there's actually no right signal, I'm not sure how it's done. I assumed that because there's no right signal it just ignores that channel.

Rick: I guess based on that description above, it is exactly the case which you describe? The way it works for the H4n is that when in "Mono Mix", it forces you to link both channels, and thus you'd be unable to adjust recording levels for each individual channel. Perhaps that means the right channel would be "unterminated" because of the fact that there's no adjustment to turn it down. Outside of the "Mono Mix" mode I've definitely noticed some noise coming from the right channel when both channels are linked, even though there's nothing plugged into Input 2, strangely enough. There's no option to completely turn off Input 2, as far as I can discern, so I guess the best option would in fact be to unlink the channels and just turn down Input 2? As opposed to relying on faith that the "Mono Mix" does not introduce additional noise from the unused input?

 

[Steve House]

Thanks for the answers guys.

Scott, I'm curious to know why I ought not to record dialogue in 96k? I was under the impression that the higher the fidelity, the better, for anything.

...

Up to a point. The theoretical limit (Nyquist) is the sample rate needs to be at least double the maximum frequency to be recorded. The video standard sample rate is 48kHz, thus the theoretical maximum frequency recorded in 24kHz. This is well above the upper range of the human voice and so 48kHx is more than adequate. When your audio recording is incorporated into the soundtrack of the final video it will end up being converted to 48kHz anyway. It's not that 96kHz is bad, it's just its increased file size doesn't buy you any advantages when you're recording voice. If you were recording music or FX source audio that is going to be heavily manipulated in post it might be of some benefit.

 

[Noiz2]

I'm curious to know why I ought not to record dialogue in 96k? I was under the impression that the higher the fidelity, the better, for anything.

Steve summed up the main reasons. The others are your sound editor will almost certainly down convert it when they get it, dealing with really big files is a PITA. So they are spending time dealing with your files rather than working on your film... Even if they leave it at 96 everything is going t take twice as long to transfer so again your wasting time. "Fidelity" is a bit in the mind of the beholder. Technically yes it is a "higher quality" recording, but much of that extra is so high that you are just getting better recordings of the system noise. There is nothing you want up there generally AND very few mics will "hear" anything that high. You are also getting a finer slice of time in the zone you do want but it's really not noticeable, especially with dialog. 24 bits VS 16 is noticeable and recommended, even though you will eventually knock it down to 16 for distribution.

I know it seems that 16 to 24 is a much smaller difference than 48 to 96 but the later is just twice as many samples where the bit difference is 256 times as much information. The 96 doubles your file size 24 bit ups it by half again.

Regarding noise: so would you be suggesting that it's all a matter of perception? That the noise is consistent between the various modes of the H4n in actuality? Somehow it sounds different to me but then again I suppose it's subjective. The "Mono Mix" mode in the H4n specifies that it "blends the left and right signals down to mono then records dual-mono to each left and right channel." Since there's actually no right signal, I'm not sure how it's done. I assumed that because there's no right signal it just ignores that channel.

To an extent yes. "noise" is fairly personal. Generally folks will agree on what is noisier but different kinds of noise sound noisier to different people. And some kinds of noise sound noisier to most people. So some mics with low noise ratings may sound noisier to you than some with higher ratings.

I would go with what sounds best to you unless others who's ears you respect are saying different, they may have better trained ears than yours, then I might go with what they are saying.

That assumption is almost certainly wrong. If it's combining both channels then the unused one is a problem waiting to happen. Many preamps get noticeably noisy when they have nothing plugged into them. Even if the preamp is not nosy with an open input anything that happens to touch the connectors or? will feed right into your recording. Think of an open input as an open door not a closed one, anybody can walk in.

I'm not sure if the Zoom can record an actual mono file, I seem to remember it was always recording two tracks but? If you can go to a single track and only have one input active that's best. If you always have to have both inputs live then send them to different tracks and toss out the unused channel in post.

Most of these recorders will also do dual mono, and if you can do that with only one input active that would be OK also. In this case if your doing it all in a NLE then just use the dual mono. But if you are sending it to someone for some real post work then do them a favor and either toss the duplicate channel or let them know it's all dual mono. The reason is no sound editor wants to work with duplicated dialog tracks so they will toss out the dups. If you haven't told them that it's all dual mono they (if they are smart) will check each clip with a phase scope to make sure they are dups before tossing them. Again time they could be working on your film instead of doing maintenance.

I find a lot of times where it's all mixed up. Some tracks are dual mono, some are stereo, and some are? maybe dual mono with a level offset and some are dual mono with different mics. Those kins of projects sometimes take days just to get to where you can actually start "working".